Putting Your Weird to Work with the Co-Directors of The Brand Studios Program at CU Boulder

We get the inside scoop on The Brand Studios master’s program at CU Boulder from its co-directors, Parisa Tashakori & Jeff Gillette. Unique in its accelerated 12-month span & remit across both experience design and creative advertising, the program welcomes those with a passion to “put your weird to work.” Is it right for you?

INTRO & FOLLOW-UPS – 00:55
Why is Design So Boring? with Nate Grubbs
LAP Coffee
The LAP coffee Berlin backlash: when innovation meets resistance
Ernest to present at Creative Mornings on Dec. 12th

MEET PARISA TASHAKORI & JEFF GILLETTE – 10:07
Parisa’s faculty profile
Jeff’s faculty profile

ON ACADEMIA VS AGENCY LIFE – 13:52
Higher ed must do more to support teaching

THE BRAND STUDIOS: THE WHAT & THE WHY – 19:11
The Brand Studios at CU Boulder
AdAge: New portfolio school aims to fill a widening gap in training junior ad professionals in the wake of AI (paywall)

WHO IS THE PROGRAM FOR? – 36:34
The Students

ON STAYING SMALL & HUMAN – 41:09

GEN AI & BETTING ON CREATIVITY – 49:22
John Maeda on the Design Better podcast
Cory Doctorow: Reverse centaurs are the answer to the AI paradox

WEIRDOS WELCOME & HOW TO APPLY – 56:43
Ready to apply?

RECOMMENDATIONS – 01:01:55
Parisa: The Collaborative Habit
Jeff: The Art of Whittling & Atomic Habits
Joachim: BOSS Katana-AIR EX & Swag Lee’s Habibi Loops
Ernest: Hamnet (the novel), Lavinia & A Larger Reality at Ox

CLOSING – 01:13:26

****

Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow.

CREDITS
Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

Chapters

• 0:55 Intro & Follow-Ups
• 10:07 Meet Parisa Tashakori & Jeff Gillette
• 13:52 On Academia vs Agency Life
• 19:11 The Brand Studios: The WHAT & the WHY
• 36:34 WHO is the Program For?
• 41:09 On Staying Small & Human
• 49:22 Gen AI & Betting on Creativity
• 56:43 Weirdos Welcome & How to Apply
• 1:01:55 Recommendations
• 1:13:26 Closing

Transcript

Ernest: 0:04

Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share qualitative and quantitative perspectives on products to help you make better. My name is Ernest Kim, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host Joachim Groeger. Hey, Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim: 0:18

I am disorientated because we're recording on a Monday,

Ernest: 0:22

Oh, right.

Joachim: 0:23

yeah, I'm just, what's going on? This is not how the, the week normally begins. So this is actually a really nice way to start the week too, with a, with a recording and a, and a conversation. Um, so yeah, other, so other than that, I'm doing all right. How about you?

Ernest: 0:39

I, I also feel a little disoriented in that, I think this is the first time in months that we've recorded episodes in back to back weeks.

Joachim: 0:48

Yes. Also true. Yes.

Ernest: 0:50

Yeah. But it's exciting. It means, uh, we've got, uh, some good things to talk about. And speaking of which, this is episode 31 and, today we have an interview episode that I think we're both really excited about. We are talking to Parisa Tashakori and Jeff Gillette, the co-directors of a new one year master's level graduate program called The Brand Studios at the University of Colorado Boulder. As Parisa and Jeff describe it, there are two sides to the branding coin: design and advertising. So this unique new program is comprised of two tracks, the Design Studio led by Parisa and the Ad Studio led by Jeff. Over the course of our conversation, we'll get to know Parisa and Jeff, dive into those two tracks of design and advertising, discuss what makes the program unique, as well as the types of students that it can uniquely benefit. And of course we'll discuss AI: the role it plays in the program, as well as Parisa and Jeff's perspectives on how it might influence their respective fields in the years ahead. We've touched on design and advertising in many of our previous episodes, and our interview with UX Designer Nate Grubbs, continues to be one of our most downloaded conversations. So we think this topic and conversation are gonna be relevant and interesting to a lot of you out there. But, uh, before we dive into that, I want to emphasize that we wanna hear from you. If you have thoughts, questions, or corrections you'd like to share, please send them our way at Learn Make learn@gmail.com or on threads at Learn, make learn show, all one word, and who knows? As we did in our last episode with Zoran Svetlicic, we may bring you on as a guest, so don't be shy with your feedback. Alright, now just one last bit of business before we get to our interview, and that's follow-ups. Joachim, do you have any follow-ups to our previous episode with Zoran or any episodes prior?

Joachim: 2:45

Um, I do actually, so a, a good friend of mine, my old college friend, Mathias, who is also a listener. Thank you for listening, Mathias. Um, he immediately sent me a message about a coffee chain called. Lap. Um, so this, oh, they, well, they're really called the Lap Coffee. um, uh, LAP is an acronym for Life Among People. Uh, I don't know, I thinking about how Zoran was so dismissive of Starbucks is, uh, tagline and their branding, what was it, infinite Human Connection or something like that? I was

Ernest: 3:26

Yes,

Joachim: 3:27

it's a little

Ernest: 3:28

like that.

Joachim: 3:28

but, so, um, lap Coffee is, uh, a European coffee chain based out of Berlin. So, um, kind of a cool trendy town. And you would think Lap Coffee is third wave, but European style, Berlin style. But no, they are actually an even more stripped down coffee space. They have about, um, 15 locations in Berlin, four in Munich, and they keep expanding. They're gonna go into Hamburg, which is close to my hometown. Um, and they're, they're kind of, uh, I'll call it more American. They're VC backed. They're about scaling and they're about efficiencies. And the crazy thing is, they're trying to get into McDonald's McCafe territory. trying to do third wave coffee at a price point that competes with McDonald's. they're trying to locate themselves in, you know, high foot traffic spaces, uh, stations, train stations, you know, places like that. They don't have vibes. They don't care about vibes. They just want the smallest amount of space, the most efficient co coffee making they can do, and as much automation as they want. Here are the prices, and I think this is where you'll see how this works. So an espresso costs a Euro 50, which is about a

Ernest: 4:46

Wow.

Joachim: 4:46

75. Um, and it's not just, you know, they're trying to get good beans as

Ernest: 4:52

Right,

Joachim: 4:52

the shop. So that's a drinkable espresso, I'll call it. Not like a dark, dark roast with, you know, no, no, uh, character. Um, so they're trying to hit that third wave note with a coffee, um, quality. But the price point is nuts. Like a dollar 75. I mean, you know, in Portland you couldn't get an espresso for that

Ernest: 5:12

right.

Joachim: 5:13

you know, it all goes. And so Americana's are two euros, lattes are$3, uh, three euros. If you want an alternative milk or ice, it's all free. So it's pretty crazy. So this, they're going in a totally different direction. Minimize their footprint, super scale efficient, keep the quality high and the prices low, and they're going aggressively against the low price,

Ernest: 5:36

Huh.

Joachim: 5:36

price point. Really interesting from that perspective. Um, and, and therefore also kind of, um, you know, drawing a lot of criticism because they're

Ernest: 5:46

Ah,

Joachim: 5:46

and they're trying to, you know, but Europeans, we, we don't like these, uh, this, this American way of doing business. Um, so the, it, it's coming in, you know, that. some fears about what, what they're bringing to the, to coffee culture in Berlin. Are they shifting things in the wrong direction? Is this gonna squeeze everyone because they're actually going the other way. They're, they're really squeezing. Um, and they can do this. And this, this expansion is financed by the vc. So the question also is, is there actually margin in that one,

Ernest: 6:16

Hmm.

Joachim: 6:16

$1 75 espresso, or is it just that you've, you're kind of like subsidizing right now, and your plan is to annihilate the competition, take over all the spaces, and then you'll bring us back to the$4 espresso. I mean, it's not clear. Uh, the finance, the financials are not clear to me, but. It's, uh, it, it's an interesting counterpoint. So, um, someone is trying to go down the Walmart route with the quality of coffee that a third wave coffee shop will be bringing it to you. And of all places it's happening in Europe, which is really surprising. I know of all cities, it's Berlin. Again, to me, always surprising, but not. It's also, you know, Berlin's a bit of a tech hub and there's, they've been attracting expatriates for a long time and, uh, yeah, why not give it a try? I mean, a dollar 75 for an espresso and it's a good espresso. That's kind of crazy. I don't know.

Ernest: 7:04

I think it, yeah. It's so interesting. It, it, it, it, um, brings to mind that Jeff Bezos-ism, that you've cited a few times of your margin is my opportunity

Joachim: 7:14

Yes,

Ernest: 7:14

in a couple of ways. You know, directly the margin, but also just the aspects of the third wave coffee experience that maybe not everyone needs and not every time they have a coffee, right? So it does feel like there's untapped opportunity and people who want the quality and the flavor without all the other things, uh, want it quickly and at a accessible price. So yeah, it's so interesting. Thanks for highlighting that and it, this is a friend of yours as well that's doing this.

Joachim: 7:45

it was Mattias Mattias sipping full name. Here we go. But yeah, he's, uh, he is, um, based in London. he is also, you know, this is a slight tangent, but coffee culture in London came from Australia and New Zealand. So third wave coffee came from those people. So everyone was educated in, in, in the UK Aussies and Kiwis, were bringing their flat whites and all of that stuff. So the UK has a lot of those influences. then of course, those people will be traveling across Europe and then, so a lap is trying to bring that wave of coffee at a low price point. So when

Ernest: 8:19

I see,

Joachim: 8:20

their coffee SNBs, I think a lot of the people are like coming from Melbourne and bringing that culture to, to the low price point. So,

Ernest: 8:26

huh?

Joachim: 8:26

uh, a little bit different than the third wave in America and the states,

Ernest: 8:30

Right.

Joachim: 8:31

I. snobbery is kind of the same.

Ernest: 8:36

Oh, that's a great follow-up. Um, I have less of a follow-up and more of a, what I guess would be a pre-up, which is that I'm going to be presenting at Creative Mornings in Portland, Oregon on Friday, December 12th. I actually hadn't ever heard of Creative Mornings until my friend and fellow co-founder at 37 Signals Jason Fried, uh, referred me to them. I've since come to learn that the group was started in New York back in 2008 by Tina Roth Eisenberg, and I'm quoting their site now: It was created out of a desire for an ongoing accessible event for New York's creative community. The concept was simple: breakfast and a short talk one Friday morning, a month. Every event would be free of charge and open to anyone. Uh, well, the great thing is that Creative Mornings has been going strong ever since then and has now expanded out to over 250 cities around the world, including Portland. And the talks are still all free and all still open to anyone. as I understand it, for a given month, every Creative Mornings presenter is given the same theme. For example, the theme for this month, November is growth, whereas the theme for December when I'll be presenting is innovation. the details from my talk won't be posted to the Creative Mornings website until after this month's presentation in a couple of weeks, but we'll include a direct link in the show notes to the Creative Mornings Portland page for anyone in town who might be interested in joining on December 12th. It'd be great to meet up with listeners after the event, so please do say hello afterwards if you're there. Alright, now let's jump back to our main topic for this episode, which is our interview with Parisa Tashakori and Jeff Gillette, the co-directors of The Brand Studios at the University of Colorado Boulder. Parisa and Jeff, thanks so much for joining us on Learn, Make, Learn.

Jeff: 10:22

Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Parisa: 10:24

Thanks for having us, yeah. I'm so excited for this conversatio n.

Ernest: 10:28

Um, how about we start with some quick introductions and you know, since we have you both here, rather than having us introduce you, uh, I think you'll probably both do a much better job of it yourselves Parisa, how about we start with you? Can you tell us about yourself and your background, particularly in the context of this new program?

Parisa: 10:46

Yes, for sure. I'm originally from Iran and moved to US in 2017, and I have been a visual designer and worked on two most prestigious advertising agency when I was in Iran, like in VI and like Jar Bagg and, um. And then I opened my, studio that I focused more on, like cultural and social events and projects, uh, from 2008 to two 2016 before I moved to the us. And, my connection to this program started from 2019 when I met the former director, David Sladen, and he invited me to teach visual design and brand design classes. And then on 2022, he asked me to become like the associate director. And later, when it was the time for him to be retired, he asked me to take the directorship of the program in 2023. And, um, like from like the historical part of the, the program during last 13 years till this year, it was the fo the main focus was actually like user brand design

Ernest: 12:11

Hmm.

Jeff: 12:14

Yeah. and I've been in the ad business for a real long time, about 20 ish years. Started out, at Crispin Porter Bogusky way back in 2000, oh man, 2004 ish. And then went from there to Google where I helped, uh, start the Google Creative Lab, which is a super fun time, very early days of that, program. And then, uh, went to we Kennedy for, for about six years where I met you, Ernest. And we got to work on Coca-Cola and a bunch of other fun stuff. And then from there I bounced over to, to Goodby Silverstein, and then back over to, um, Colorado, where I've been an executive creative for, for a while. And then. Two, three years ago, um, got bit by the teaching bug, started teaching on the side, and then, I, I met Parisa and the, the team over at CU. Loved the team, loved the atmosphere, loved the, the moment in time in which we're in and where, where I think education can really have a huge impact. So, um, I took the full, full-time pledge, became a professor about two years ago, and, um, then I worked with Parisa and our chair of the department and a few others to, to help figure out ways that we could bring, especially creative advertising to a higher level. And we've redesigned the undergraduate program and now we are adding to Parisa's, UX UI design program and establishing a creative advertising track alongside of it. And in doing that, we're, we're kind of recreating, uh, a new umbrella program for, for what it's become.

Ernest: 13:52

You know, it's interesting, Parisa and Jeff, you've actually had the inverse of, um, Joachim's journey. He was in academia and then moved over into industry. how has that been for you both making that move from the agency side for both of you and then into academia?

Parisa: 14:10

actually I was always connected to. Uh, academia, when I finished my like, um, master degree, uh, the former, program director of our university, he asked me to teach one course for packaging design. And from that time I just taught like classes every single semester. I taught just one class when I was in Iran. I also had the opportunity to teach internationally for different workshops in countries like, Mexico, Peru, Bolivia, France, and different countries to work with, like international students. But being, uh, like a full-time, uh, professor, it's, it's a little bit different because it's like a more than full-time job because it's a lot of work and, um. I mean, I was a 80% designer, 20% academia. Now I think I switched that ratio but I, I still do practice design, visual design and also like artistic part of that design, um, that I really like it to bring like real examples and the engagement to my students at CU.

Ernest: 15:31

Jeff, you were nodding pretty vigorously when Parisa was talking about the workload.

Jeff: 15:36

Yeah. Especially the, it's more than a hundred percent job, right? I mean, I think, um, every teacher everywhere probably identifies with that. And I came to teaching very late. I was in the industry for a really long time. I got my master's at VCU Brand Center and saw what those professors were doing and was super impressed. And they definitely changed the course of my career, but I didn't really teach a class until probably about four or five years ago. And, um, once I did, I understood why teachers do what they do. Like it, it's an amazing moment when you can break through and a student learns something for the first time that they didn't know was out there, didn't, have quite a grasp of before, you know, you get a chance to, open them up to it. So as soon as I started, I was kind of hooked. And then, yeah, when the full-time opportunity came up, I jumped fully in. And like Parisa said, it is an all consuming, career in a great way. Like it's, it's amazing and, um, the students will blossom if you give them the time, but often that means being available, right, all the time outside of classes.

Parisa: 16:46

Honestly, I, I thought, uh, maybe University is less work, less intense because I was tired of just being awake sometimes until like, uh, midnight and then even like 1am, 2am. But aren't we still doing that?

Jeff: 17:04

Yeah, no, it's true. Yeah, I mean, I think the hours are, are definitely different. Like, I, I can switch it off on the weekends and obviously during summer weekend to certain degrees, go away, travel and not have the burden of like, oh, that next deadline right, right on top of you. But, um, it's still in your thoughts all the time, every day, right. Just like, just like during the career.

Ernest: 17:30

Joachim, does this make you feel nostalgic at all for your teaching days?

Joachim: 17:34

The workload thing is a good point. You're not necessarily at at your or there's some messages and everyone needs you to respond to it, but you are turning things over in your head all the time. And you're always stumbling on another way of presenting something or thinking about something., As you were saying, Jeff, it's, it's this opportunity to, that you don't get very often, which is mold and shape and beyond that that a safe environment for ideas, right. And that's, that responsibility is pretty So that, I think that weighs why you guys are still thinking there's real people the end of this

Ernest: 18:12

Hmm

Joachim: 18:12

they are in a very, hmm, a sensitive situ position where they're still in that learning mode, which means that they're very vulnerable because they're trying to open up their minds to things, and you want to create the right environment. And you know, if you say the wrong thing in this moment

Ernest: 18:27

Hmm.

Joachim: 18:27

like, oh, that wasn't very good. You'd be like, oh no. You know, this could be the phrase that blows everything up in their head and they'll never like go. So I that, that and I've miss

Jeff: 18:42

It's so true, the word responsibility, like you do feel it in the classroom. Like every time you go in you're like, okay, I need to be at my best or I'm not making it worthwhile for, for this group of students. And it is, it's not like you go into a boardroom and you're like, okay, we have to be on and sell this campaign to, to this professional. Yeah, that, that has, you know, um, consequences as well. But these are people's lives at a, at a moment, which really matters to them. So that's, that's pretty exciting.

Ernest: 19:12

Now I, um, shared a very level overview of your new The Brand Studios program in the intro, i'd love to give you both an to discuss in greater detail. First, what is it also why did you create it? And, you know, feel free either of you to jump in.

Jeff: 19:34

I can start. Um, what is it? It's, um, when I reduce it down to its simplest, I like to call it a graduate school for human creativity. Right? And I think obviously that's an idea that's been shaped in the last little bit because of AI and everything that's going on. But what we wanna do is invest in, in young people's creative spirits and their creative points of view and in their self-expression. And we wanna take on students who, who really have a very clear idea of what they want to do, what they wanna create. And we wanna bring them into what, um, you were describing before, like the safe atmosphere where they can experiment and really find out what their voice is. And, and, you know, along the way, learn the tools and the tricks and the things that we've learned with, whether it's design, user experience, creative advertising, we wanna impart on them what we've learned, but we also wanna realize that the, the world is changing and it's changing fast. And we're not here to tell them, here's the method, here's the formula, here's how it works. We're really here to let'em know that, the way it's gonna work is for them to channel what's inside of them in order to bring that to the industry.

Ernest: 20:46

I was curious Parisa is the is there a change on the design side of the program? Or is that, kind of, staying consistent?

Parisa: 20:53

Actually no, it's, it's, it has changed a lot because we review the curriculum. Uh, actually we review that every three years in the past, but maybe now considering the changes in industry, maybe we should review the curriculum every year. But we actually did it last year, so our curriculum is very updated. And, uh, we always just put together a team, a committee that they are all teaching for us and also, um, some people out of the program, to just review our curriculum to see if they are really like, make sense, uh, with that changes in the industry, especially on user experience design, the tech system and UI/UX and also branding design. And, we also, uh, intentionally want to keep this program small and focus on finding the right fit. Um, that they feel good and productive about our program because we really don't want to increase just numbers because we really value the money of the students, their energy, their time. Higher education is very expensive, I understand that. Uh, we really don't want waste their money and their time.

Jeff: 22:20

I would say that's, that's a great point. We, we do wanna keep this small and, you know, there are a lot of other programs out there and, and each one has great merits, um, and is a great fit for different kinds of students. Ours is a one year master's program, which means it's highly accelerated, highly intense. We have 39 credits, just like most other master's programs, if not maybe a little bit more than other programs, which means our students are taking a lot of classes, all at the same time. And the, the, the speed is part of the curriculum, but also it's pretty intense and, and it's not for everyone. But for, for the right student and the right fit, it can, again, do what, my masters did for me, which was change the, the trajectory of, of my career.

Joachim: 23:03

I was just gonna ask, what does this look like? I'm a student, I show up on day what is exploration phase and then a narrowing, like how are you thinking about that student journey for that one year?

Parisa: 23:27

That's a great question actually. Uh, because the origin of our program, coming from like D school in Stanford, so our applicants, they don't need to have a like related degree on their undergrad, for example, having design background or advertising background, as we believe design and creative disciplines, they are team-based career where collaboration is the key for that. However, their statement, their portfolio that they submit for our program should showcase, a strong passion for creativity and design. And also showing that they have done some, because I know many business school students, and also like, you know, marketing computer science students, they, um, have minor in like design or like advertising or marketing. They, they, they can be a really good fit for our program because they. They don't bring just their creative side on the table. They also can bring, like the business perspective and also like the, um, like for, for my track, like user experience, having a creative technology students or like a computer science can be a really valuable thing.

Jeff: 24:50

Yeah. And to add, uh, add to that maybe, uh, a little bit of some of the structure in our, our, um, our three semesters are outlined on our website, but essentially semester one, day one, you're introduced to a lot of the fundamentals, right? To Parisa's point, not everybody's coming from the same place. Not everybody has had a background in advertising or design. So we introduced'em to the fundamentals of branding, the fundamentals of design, the fundamentals of copywriting and writing and conceptual thinking. Um, and then they build on that from there, you know, they're off and running. Um, those folks who do come in with some background in those. Those fundamental classes, they're still able to self guide, create design work in the design classes, create work in the conceptual classes, and then when they get into semesters two and three, it's all about making, making every day, making all day, sharing the work, critiquing each other, because the skills that they're gonna come outta here with are skills of collaboration, of communication, of creativity. These are the things that they're only gonna learn by doing. So they're, they're doing all the, all the time from the, from the very beginning. But there is that first semester of letting them get their feet on the ground, letting them understand all the fundamentals, and then, um, taking them through the rest. And I mean, Parisa can talk to this even, even better than I can, but the, the instructors that we hire and that we put in in these classes are, are experts in their field and also are really attuned to these different students' needs. And they can kind of feel where the class is and where individuals in the classes are, so they can give more guidance to the ones who are new, um, they can let the ones who maybe have a bit more experience kind of go off on their own and, and give them the light touch that, that they need.

Ernest: 26:35

Jeff you had shared link to article on adage from today--just for context, we're recording this in early November--that gave a really good overview of the program and there was one segment in particular that I was really struck by. It was a quote um from Chuck Porter, the legendary co-founder of Crispin Porter Bogusky. So, quoting that piece, Chuck Porter co-founder and chairman of CPB said what was most appealing to him about the University Colorado's program and why he has since agreed to be a board member is the program's length. Masters programs don't need to be two years, he said. That's just custom and tradition. CU Boulder's program is much more designed to create work rather than listen to lectures, Porter said. Gillette's vision for this is much more tuned to what's going to be useful when you get into the real world, unquote. and you know First, as AdAge notes, Porter's on the board for your program which I think is amazing the caliber of people you've been able to attract to your board is phenomenal, and we can talk more about that in just a minute. But um you also touched on that point of the duration of your program. You know Porter really emphasizes here the fact that it's one year versus two, as well as your focus on applied learning, seem to be things that really do set program apart. Is that fair to say?

Jeff: 27:51

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the, the length of the program is one of the biggest things that, that, um, that makes us different. It's, uh, from, from my knowledge, there aren't that many one year master's in the country, but there are even fewer when, when you talk about design and creative advertising, that focus being in one year is, is very unique. And, and it's, it's interesting that it's unique because our businesses go fast. Like just by nature it's a fast moving business and you're constantly spinning a lot of plates. You're constantly working to the next deadline. And one of the biggest things as we were talking to professionals when we were, were designing this program is that, um. The number one reason they say they aren't hiring juniors is because it slows them down. So junior talent causes them to have to take their eye off of the pitch, off of the deadline, off of whatever it is they're doing to go and train and mentor these, these young people. They know they need them, they know they need that fresh perspective, but they're moving so fast that if those, those young junior talents can't keep up, they just don't even bother bringing them into the building. And that's the the one thing I think we in the education world absolutely have to fix. We have to get the students ready to literally hit the ground running alongside this moving train. And the only way I think we can do that is by making them move as fast as the industry. Oh, sorry. One other thing I should say. Like that, that quote Chuck is amazing. He, he, he and the whole board that we're putting together are great. I think he mentioned Gillette's vision and I would say that it's Gillette's and Parisa's vision, along with a lot of the other folks that we've been working, uh, with to build this thing. So I I do not wanna take full credit for that at all.

Ernest: 29:39

is it correct that everyone on your faculty is still in industry as well?

Jeff: 29:45

Yes.

Parisa: 29:46

Definitely, I can talk about that, that, um, because the program started in, I think in the, Crispin Porter Bogusky, uh, as a kind of professional... like, um, you know, even it in that time it was not certificate. It was like, um, a program for professionals that they wanted to jump into the, the digital, design. So, um, after that, when the CU owned the program and developed, the program as a degree, so it was already carries the same, uh, nature that the program had before. So all of our teachers, uh, coming from industry, from tech companies, local agencies, um, couple of like startup in Boulder, Denver. So we intentionally want to keep the program professionals because these students like coming to our program to develop a portfolio to get a job after that. And, um, I, also bring another quote from a creative, person, Aaron Poe, that I, um, saw his presentation in Brand New Conference that I was last week in, um, Pittsburgh. He said, what I am telling you today, it doesn't work tomorrow, maybe. You know...

Jeff: 31:11

right.

Parisa: 31:11

I mean everything is so fast. And, uh, because of that, these, um, faculty, they update themselves every day in their job, in their challenges that they have. So they can bring like fresh perspective, the recent technology, the, the recent mentorship to offer to our students. Also our alumni are a great asset for us because they, uh, continue working with our students, hiring our students. We have a Slack channel for all of our, BDW alumni, and also their recent graduates of the, the program that they all work together to hire some of the new graduates or intern, like facilitate an internship for them. So it's a great, uh, community that, um, we have at our Studio.

Jeff: 32:09

And I would just add to that, that, um, in addition to finding instructors and adjuncts who are from the professional world who have many, many years of experience doing this, we also do vet them for how much they do care about the educational system and educational process. And a lot of them have masters the way that that Parisa and I do, right. I think that's another thing that maybe distinguishes us from, a lot of, portfolio schools. And not that there's anything wrong with that, that, but often they, they tap somebody in the industry who, that who's available and who can teach these classes. And what we look for is a very stringent requirement. Master's if at all possible, but we also, if, if we can't find somebody with a master's degree, we, we vet them to make sure that they have that academic spirit. Because at the end of the day, we're a university, we're attached to university. We care very much about academic rigor and, and the liberal arts education side of things alongside of the professional skills.

Ernest: 33:08

Something that Joachim and I have talked in past is actually the extent to which, um, there is an aspect of academia these days where Professors really don't have much time for their students

Jeff: 33:22

Mm-hmm.

Ernest: 33:23

that are really are so much focused on research, it's great to hear that big point of emphasis for you.

Jeff: 33:28

Ooh, we should come back and have that conversation because that. I'm sure Parisa and I would love to about that.

Ernest: 33:35

Oh, I think could all geek out Yeah On that with Joachim as well

Jeff: 33:39

No, I mean, everybody's so busy these days, right? I mean, it's, it's, you know, we're all spinning a a thousand plates and, you know, um, I know I'm guilty of it. There are some times when, like, I could have spent more time with students after class, but I have to rush to a meeting, have to rush to whatever it is that we're doing. Um, but I think at the end of the day, most of the people, at least at CU that I've run into in our department and on this, uh, on this team, um, put the students first and put the education that we're here to provide as the number one priority.

Joachim: 34:12

I guess the size. Now it now it all makes sense. Your, statement, Parisa, at the beginning of small class sizes. It's not about gigantic lecture rooms.

Jeff: 34:21

right?

Joachim: 34:21

is only possible because you're, you're restricting yourself in that way and having, and then giving the students that coverage that they need. And that's why you can then ask them to push themselves because they're all in the room together You can give them the time.

Jeff: 34:35

A hundred A hundred percent.

Parisa: 34:37

Yes, that's exactly, uh, what we want to have. This program is very student driven program. And, uh, we even, um, our studio that they are off campus, they are in downtown Boulder, and we wanted to give them kind of like, um, real world experience to our students. And these two, um, studios are available from 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM for our students. Even during weekend, they can meet their clients, their faculties or their um, peers to work together. And, um, they honestly, when they leave the program, most of them, they say that, oh, we got a job in this agency, or like at Uber, or like Google and working in these companies are easier than working with the studios at CU because we intentionally wanted to make students comfortable by being uncomfortable. To experience the, like, challenges working together, sometimes taking the leadership role and other time taking, um, like art directorship or like designer or even UX researcher. You know, each time they will have the opportunity to work with different team on a different role, which is, uh, great. We also value, uh, diversity in our program a lot. Um, our learners coming from various parts of the US and also around the world, uh, representing different cultures, different age even, uh, you know, uh, that, um, they can work with each other and, um, like take this program as an opportunity, as a playground for their future.

Ernest: 36:33

Yeah think that's a great segue. You know we've talked about the what the why of the program and I opportunity to talk about of on the student cause I curious you did you you developed the program you know or maybe another way of thinking about it is who think could benefit from enrollment in the brand studios?

Jeff: 36:58

I, well, I think we're open, right? I think we're open to anyone who wants to, um, continue their education and creativity. Uh, I think we see a lot right now of, um, either folks who've been out of the undergraduate, uh, degree for a number of years, maybe one to two, have had some work experience and then have come back. Um, we've had some folks come straight from undergraduate into this program, and I think we anticipate both of those things. And, and in addition to that, maybe a smaller minority are folks who are mid-career who, who have decided that they want to completely change careers. They've maybe gone to a place where they feel like they've, um, gone far enough, or maybe they've just decided that what they want is something completely different outta their career. So, sometimes we'll get people with what, 10 years of experience, who, who come back and, and want to, um, reengage in academia. So we don't necessarily want to put any kind of controls or rules around it. But, um, maybe that gives you sort of a sense of at least the, the three main kinds of students we see.

Parisa: 38:09

also, uh, sometimes, uh, we have some students that they have a business already, and they want to develop that in a upper level, in another level. Or they want to, uh, carry their own business in the future. They want to have, like, work on their startup, you know. They definitely, most of the time fail on first startup, maybe sometimes on the next, like the second startup. But we had some examples that they now they are like business owner, entrepreneurs and they, they just brought whatever they learned in from our program to their real life. Um, also this program, we, um, always recommend not having a full-time job when they come to this program because it's really intense. Uh, and they feel a lot of stress as I mentioned before. Um, and also like sometimes we have athlete students that they have a very, a amazing background in creative, um, field. They can come to our program, um, but again, it's not possible to have a full-time job or full, full-time, like athletic, like, job to come to this program.

Ernest: 39:31

Right

Jeff: 39:33

That goes back to that speed and the intensity of the program. Yeah. It wouldn't, it wouldn't suit the students well. They wouldn't be set up for success if they also felt they could have a full-time job. Even a part-time job is kind of pushing it, to be honest. Um, if they could dedicate themselves for this one full year, I think that sets them up for success the best. And back to Parisa's note on entrepreneurialism, like that is a big part of the program. It's a big part of how it started as Boulder Digital Works, it's a big part of how it's evolved, and I think it's really kind of the DNA of Boulder sort of seeping into what it is. And, you know, there's a ton of startups here. There's a constant stream of entrepreneurs. There's um, there's a, we're making, um, bridges with the entrepreneurial, uh, team at cu, which also has launched a, a, a really large number of startups. So that's a big part of this. You know, not everybody who graduates this program will become a UX designer or a brand designer or a, a copywriter, art director, you know. A lot of them will just be taking the skillset and launching their next new thing or becoming an entrepreneur in whatever brand, uh, or company, they, they find themselves and reinventing themselves, which is honestly probably The key skill you need to learn right now when we're moving into a moment in time where nobody really knows what's gonna happen, right, in the next five years. But if you can be an entrepreneur, if you can be, somebody who can adapt and solve problems creatively, I think you're gonna be ahead of almost everyone else.

Ernest: 41:09

Parisa, you had also mentioned um a minute ago diversity and I was excited to see that in that AdAge piece I referenced they quoted another member of your board, Jason Pierce, the CEO uh and co-founder of um Inc Management. And I'll I'll just reference that article once again here. So, quote, what the new of colorado is its effort recruit diverse talent it recruit from underrepresented communities and cities such as Detroit and Baltimore where this talent lives program will also set graduates up mentors working in the industry give them critical guidance as they enter unquote. So I that seemed really I was excited to see that mean it big need terms diversity in the industry but then also idea that you're gonna the relationship doesn't end on graduation day it seems right That you're gonna connect folks with mentors and they'll stick with you kind of beyond that classes.

Parisa: 42:10

Yes. Yes. I, I learned a lot, um, when I started my job at this program. You know, I, I think I, I grow at the same time that I helped other students to grow. I feel always, I keep myself as a students also because I really, um, appreciate the higher education, you know? And, um, I, maybe, maybe I can go back to your first question. How I became like the full-time educator in 2017 when I moved to US, I had like more time to read and especially like transfer all of my knowledge to English. You know, just, just find the, the correct term for each thing that I knew. So I read a book I'm Malala, you know, and I found out how important is like, um, educate people. You know, education sometimes feels very mundane and just like part of our everyday life, but it, like many people, they don't have access to education even on basic education. And, um, when people, uh, go through that journey, like different doors will be open in front of them. And, um, later, uh, when I became the director of this program, I should equip myself with the leadership role. And I read another, um, book, Decolonizing Design, uh, from Dory Tunstall that she was the, uh, I think OCAD head of the design. So in this book, uh, she's talking about challenging, um, the dominant Western way of thinking about design. And it's basically says that, uh, the traditional design has often ignored or harmed, non-Western cultures. And, um, the book. Offers like practical way and different, uh, you know, pathway to make design more inclusive of all like people's culture practices and make some opportunities for people, uh, that, um, they were like minors in most of their life. So, uh, because of that, we, we really want to keep the faculty, the program, the community, very diverse.

Ernest: 44:42

Hmm

Jeff: 44:44

Yeah. And um, I, I think Parisa mentioned this before, but the alumni network of, of the program is, is a big key part of that, right? The students who come in and have been a part of this want to mentor the next generation. So that mentorship program kind of takes care of itself. Although I think we will we'll put, uh, a lot of effort into making sure people are connected with, um, the right sort of mental twin. Sorry, my dog is just coming and suddenly, um, distracted me.

Parisa: 45:17

Jeff. It shows

Jeff: 45:19

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Sure. Just, uh, crazy dog coming in, being um, being her crazy self. Um, where was I? Mentorship, yeah, I think that is gonna be a key part of, and it has been a key part of the program and you know, we luckily, because we're part of a university, have the luxury to not have to operate like a business, right? We're not here to take on as many students as we can to make as much money as we can. We're here to educate in our own way. Um. And the best way we know how. And part of that is not only bringing in diverse sets of thinkers to work together so that they make each other better, but it's to not just sort of let them leave and, and, you know, say good luck to you. Right. It's to, it's to be there with them and to help connect them to, to, to folks that can steer their career, not just in the year or two after, but hopefully throughout.

Ernest: 46:22

my impression is that it's a very human program

Jeff: 46:25

Yes.

Ernest: 46:26

It's not dry, sitting in classrooms Kind of like uh Chuck Porter was saying it it sounds very human

Jeff: 46:33

And it's, it's one of the reasons why we're always in person. There are no online versions of the program. It's, um, it's why we are in that studio that's off campus in downtown Boulder so that we can establish our own little community that feels like its own little agency or design firm.

Parisa: 46:50

and this program is just a, um, problem solving based program. You know, and students will have a lot of, like real cases study also from, or faculty or from like the community business owner of Boulder that they come to our program with a challenge, with a kind of problem sometimes that problem is digital or like, I mean, they can use their digital aspects or it, that problem can be, uh, solve, uh, physically, you know, uh, students work with them in different teams to find some possibilities for as a solution, you know. And um, um, as Jeff mentioned, like this program, uh, is very, like, we try to bring students to the center. So sometimes they come to us, uh, with a sometimes problem with another students, or with faculty, or with

Jeff: 47:51

It's very human Program, Yeah. Like you

Parisa: 47:54

we say, okay, this is your challenge. Now what is your solution? How we can fix it together? You know, because it, it can happen in the future with your coworker in,

Jeff: 48:08

all the.

Ernest: 48:12

That's great so much a part of what you're learning Is is are those

Jeff: 48:16

It's It's, the soft skills, you know, and, and, and we talk about that a little bit in the article. It's, it's, it's really the thing that these students need to learn now more than ever. Partly because these are students who've come through the pandemic and have had part of that education robbed of them along the way. Part of it is because we're going into a, a, a new age of, of AI and, and tech tools and, you know, I think what makes them human is gonna be. What makes them valuable, and we're here to kind of help draw a lot of that outta them, right? The, the, the human soft skills of collaborating, of learning how to deal with other humans, of, of speaking their mind and being respectful of, of others', uh, point of view. And, um, you know, in addition to all the soft skills that go into the everyday professional world, um, listening, uh, communicating, all, all of those. So it is, it is, I love how you put that, Ernest. It is a very human program

Ernest: 49:18

that's awesome Um actually both of you talked about the challenges related to the pace of change days And just mentioned AI and you clearly that's a topic on lots people's minds generative And was really to see have Michael uh Tabtabai

Jeff: 49:43

up to buy. Yep.

Ernest: 49:45

uh open AI's VP Global Creative for your tap into that expertise seems phenomenal But um you know I've heard a lot of young people Okay Express concerns know related to generative ai about appropriation of their work about of their work or even just like the existential threat to the future availability any designer advertising due to these new tools I think about those sorts of things Do you think they're these concerns are warranted

Jeff: 50:19

Well, I mean, yeah, I think we're all feeling, you know, anxious about how does this pan out in the end. Right. And I think, you know, I, I talked to one of the creative directors at, at, at Google, um, a while back when we were looking at designing this program. And, uh, you know, I'm. do you think is this gonna be valuable for students in the future? Because he does a lot of work with Gemini and their AI tools and he's like, you know, if there, if there was one thing I was gonna bet on in the future, it would be creativity. He's like, I don't, as great as these tools are, I think you still need to be there to ask the questions. You still need to have a curious mind. You still need to creatively know how to problem solve. And these tools actually can help benefit creative thinkers, maybe most of all, because it'll allow you to explore those creative think thinking and those creative ideas and chase them down more fully than you would've been able to before and, and a lot more of them. So I think it's not really an either or, hopefully it's an and, you know, and I, I think. We talked about having an AI class in one, in our curriculum that's just specific to the tools, and we thought, well, no, it's, it's gonna be woven, woven throughout. It's gonna be something that these students take from day one in the first class and use throughout all of their classes. And they need to learn how to become a true collaborator with ai. And it needs to be, you know, there by their side. And they need to treat it like a partner. And, um, I think the people who, who can do that and can get the most out of AI and, and also can draw the most out of their own human selves, are gonna find that perfect balance of how we can help each other.

Ernest: 52:05

And and it connect to prea about outside of say traditional design backgrounds tools will enable folks to tap into creative abilities even though maybe they didn't necessarily have a design background

Parisa: 52:22

Sure. I, I mean, we should try everything ourself, you know? Uh, we should play, play, experiment, iterate, fail, and learn from our failure. You know? And sometimes I learn a lot from my students. I, I, I should confess that because they are. Like, uh, the new generation, they're faster than us, but we try to bring like experience and also like facilitate a great, um, space for them to experiment, you know? So, um, we also, um, always try to make it better next time that we try a new things, you know, and, um, I mean, absolutely it's very vague for all of us that how how will be happen, uh, what will be happen in the future, not just for the new generation, that they feel a lot of stress in that area also for us as a millennia or like, you know, their parents, you know. But, um, hasn't the design world always been full of ambiguity? I think human always had different kind of challenge from like hunter era to agricultural, to urbanism, you know, and I mean, every time human has a challenge and is just creating a stuff for, for something that there is no exist, you know? So we are always like, play as a futurist, you know, in, in the creative area, in the like, innovation, phase. And, um, I don't think be afraid of that. We should just make ourself equipped and armed with, um, learning that as, as soon as possible because as legendary, John Maeda, computer science and educator says always that embrace AI as, as a copilot and leverage it to focus on, you know, uniquely human task. Because at the end we are running that tools and it it, it should be a

Ernest: 54:45

Hmm

Joachim: 54:45

that's a

Parisa: 54:52

talks about

Joachim: 55:23

Centaurs, want cent, want the augmentation in

Parisa: 55:26

in the right direction. Right. It's, it's a tool that help things out. Yes. And actually as a designer, and sometimes as an activist, as people says about me, I try to bring those thoughts to my classes. If AI can't help any of us on this planet access fair resources to like live better, healthier, safer air without war, like, um, so it, if it doesn't work, don't use that. I mean, use it for good things. And it should not be limited to just the few people on the planet to develop. Um, like the things that they are not good for humanity and also for like. Other creatures in this sport. I, I, again, I'm learning a lot because I developed a course like three years ago that it was like a branding design, a brand design for sustainable future. So I'm learning a lot, um, how we can be a good human to

Jeff: 56:35

Like create an image of that reverse centaur because I wanna see what that looks like.

Joachim: 56:43

Well, okay. So thank you so much. Is there anything that you want to give us as last words that either words of total inspiration

Ernest: 56:52

Yeah

Joachim: 56:52

focused around the mean, we we're leaving it up to you to have the last word on this,

Jeff: 56:57

the one thing that comes to mind for me is Ernest, you mentioned, you know, what is the what and the why of the program, and I think we touched on both maybe more the what than the why, because I think. So, at least for me, one of the whys is that the industry really needs fresh thinking right now, right? Like, especially with all the AI tools and especially with everybody who has access to the exact same tools, we're starting to see the exact same thing. Um, and the same answers, you know, almost in that peanut butter effect just kind of smeared across, uh, the toast. And I think one of the things we hope for with this program is to find really interesting, unique thinkers, set them up for success, train them up. So not that not only can they succeed in this business, but they can go and lead it and, and offer their fresh, unique points of view so that this thing doesn't get stale. Um,'cause I, I think we all think it easily can, and without those, those weirdos out there running around doing their weird thing, like it, it's just, it's boring.

Ernest: 58:01

And back to the point you made earlier, Parisa, as well about diversity. You need these diverse viewpoints and just like you were talking about in the context of ai these new tools need to be accessible to these folks as well

Parisa: 58:14

Oh, for sure. I think sometimes we will see a lot of like, um, common things, the same visual, you know, um, identity, brand identity because everybody is using AI or the same typefaces that they are trend, you know. So the, the new generation, they need to make them more different from other people. Because of that we say weirdos welcome because sometimes our like relatives, our families, they think that we are weird, So we, we are welcoming all these creative people. But that differentiation should be genuine. It can't be happen overnight. It's all part of the human experience over the time. And we aim to provide a space for genuine differentiation, not just superficial, you know, things. Uh, it's like sometimes some, some new cities or town they want to create, like downtown. You know, I don't think the new downtown makes sense for anyone. Uh, you know, because we need that history. We need people, we need community, we need like activities, you know? Um, all of these stuff can make, genuine differentiation.

Ernest: 59:41

Well I I think that all sounds so fantastic I kind of wish that I could sign up for the program myself. But, on that, where should people go if they wanna learn more about the program or if they wanna apply?

Jeff: 59:54

That's a great question. It's, um, the, the URL is Colorado dot edu slash the brand studios. Um, or if somebody just wants to Google"The Brand Studios," we should be the one that pops up. Um, and yeah, all of the information is on there, uh, in fact, Parisa and my, our personal emails are on there so they can contact the directors directly and we can answer any questions they have. That's another benefit of keeping this small, is that, um, we can be a personal connection for them.

Joachim: 1:00:23

And do you guys have any other online presences that you'd wanna direct people to, to learn more about personally, like other spots that you're active on online?

Parisa: 1:00:32

Yes. They can find me on my Instagram, LinkedIn, uh, with my name, Parisa dot Tashakori. Uh, and yeah, we are very approachable. We try to, to just connect with, we are not the kind of people that they never answer their email! No. We, we, uh, we value students, we value our learners and sometimes try to even. Uh, meet them through Zoom to, to see if they are good applicant for us or we are good program for them, you know? Um, because again, we don't want to waste energy and money of the people. We just want to bring the people with purpose and also with some intention for change something on their society and their community.

Jeff: 1:01:27

Exactly. It's about fit, you know, at the end of the day. So that's why we're trying to make ourselves available and why we've, um, spent a lot of time trying to put as much on this website, uh, as possible so they can get a sense of who we are. And, um, we'd love anybody who's interested to apply and we'll get a sense of who they are.

Ernest: 1:01:46

That's fantastic Thanks so much once again Parisa and Jeff for joining us today. But don't leave just yet, because Parisa and Jeff are going to join us for our recommendation segment. Just for background on this for Parisa and Jeff, every episode, Joachim and I uh end with a recommendation. Initially, we had imagined this as an opportunity to highlight a product that we were particularly excited about or particularly disappointed by, as well. But, in practice, we've ended up using this mostly as an opportunity to highlight really that's uh lit a spark in us, whether it's books films music and occasionally products. So with that context, uh how about we start you Parisa? Is there a product, service, piece media, design that you'd like to praise pan for our listeners?

Parisa: 1:02:34

Sure. Um, I can talk a little about like, um, because the core of our program is based on collaboration and I, not just the program, also the industry, the creative field is based on collaboration. So, um, I, the book that I want to introduce you, um, is not a design book even. It's a, um, book by, uh, choreographer, uh, American dancer and choreographer, Twyla Tharp. And uh, the book is Collaborative Habit and she talks about how collaboration should be a habit in our daily life as it is the recognition that there is more life, opportunities, knowledge and dangers than we can handle alone. But when we are together, we can carry more things, be more strong, powerful and do bigger things.

Ernest: 1:03:37

That definitely connects to lots of things we talked well I Jeff, do you have one? Or we can let... We can let Joachim go.

Jeff: 1:03:46

Yeah, no, I, I can scare one up. I, I didn't do my homework, so I don't have anything super deep for you. Um, there, there are a couple books that are on my nightstand, and they're pretty silly. one is, um, the Art of Whittling. So during the pandemic, I really got into whittling. In fact, I think I have some knives and and wood here on my, on my table. it is. I think for, for a creative mind, especially one who likes to like, um, fidget a lot, it, it's been, uh, fantastic to, to be able to be on these kind of zooms and to be able to have something going in the background. And I actually have been able to carve my son a complete chess set, which shows you how often I'm on these Zoom calls, or at least I used to be. Um, so that's interesting and, and not something I ever imagined I would take up, but, uh, that's, that's what a pandemic does, right? It introduces you to, to brand new things. The other thing I will say is maybe slightly more serious. I'm, I'm, I'm late to this book, but Atomic Habits, I, I just started reading and I do think it's fantastic. It's, um, a small, simple concept, but I think, um. I think we would all be better off if we do think, not just about the goals we wanna achieve, but the life we wanna live and on, on a day-to-day basis, really just live, live that. And the goals, uh, kind of happen along the way. Right. Um, the achievements. So yeah. I'll leave it there.

Ernest: 1:05:15

I love the unplanned You both picked books related to habits You guys are on the same wavelength.

Jeff: 1:05:22

Always.

Ernest: 1:05:25

How about you Joachim? Do you have a recommendation today?

Joachim: 1:05:29

So because of last time, and you did it again this time Ernest, I'm calling you out. You said product recommendations very often, so I've been working to figure out product recommendations. But I um, I have two that are music related. The first one, uh, something I bought. was a total, it totally unnecessary purchase, but it's a little tabletop guitar amplifier by boss called the Katana

Ernest: 1:05:55

Air.

Joachim: 1:05:57

Um, I dunno how to describe it. It's like a little practice amp with Bluetooth connectivity and, um, a little wireless transpo, uh, transmitter. you can just grab the transmitter, plug it into your guitar and walk around the house, which

Ernest: 1:06:14

Oh

Joachim: 1:06:14

do. I annoy my wife and I annoy my children this way. Um, the other thing that's been really interesting as a, as a practicing tool is up, your phone via Bluetooth. And then you can pipe music in through the same speaker mix your guitar on top of it. So you, know, and YouTube is full of famous songs with the guitar parts taken out

Ernest: 1:06:38

right

Joachim: 1:06:39

backing tracks with with no guitar. it's, kind of different to hear your guitar playing and the backing track coming from the same speaker. You feel a a little bit more like you're with the band.

Ernest: 1:06:50

Yeah

Joachim: 1:06:51

so I was kind of on the fence of whether I I wanted this device, but I, I think I will. So it is a guitar amplifier with all the usual stuff. It's by Boss. if you know anything about musical instruments, boss make have been making some of the best guitar pedals and equipment forever. Um, and yeah, I mean the specs are just, this interest to guitarists, but there's plenty of amp simulators. You can control it with your phone. It's completely solid so it doesn't have any analog pieces of equipment there, which to me was always a no-no. But for this. It's actually, it sounds really good. Sounds

Ernest: 1:07:24

Huh

Joachim: 1:07:26

Um, so that wa that was my first one very Um, and then the other thing was, um, I was just browsing my favorite blog called Create Digital Music. Um, and they like to feature hardware and software, um, to make electronic music and so on, but they also are, have been in recent months really trying to in way more diverse sounds from, you know, other countries and music coming from other countries. So actually when Parisa, you were talking about diversity and all these things, I was thinking, Yeah, it is, everything feels very homogeneous now to us'cause we're out in the west, but there's so much stuff out there. So, um, a couple of weeks ago, um, this blog, CDM, highlighted Swag Lee, who just released a new kind of hip hop. Record called Habibi Loops. He's based out of Egypt. Um, so I, I used to live in Egypt, uh, growing up, and so the loops and things that he's drawing from are the same sounds I would hear when I would be like driving around or walking around it's just this background sound and he's just mixed it with this, these great hip hop beats. Um, so it's bang up to date and it's a beautiful hybrid of everything, which is to me way more interesting than, you know, it's like, take the bits that you like and create your own sound from that. So I will add the link to that. Um, it is not streamable on Spotify, you can only buy it on Bandcamp, which was also, that also made me feel good because it was very much like direct artist support and all those things. So yeah, Habibi Loops, it's actually volume two. He is done this before, by Swag Lee, but he has a, he has another name, I think it's, oh, I forgot

Ernest: 1:09:13

Oh that's great I can't wait to to listen Um I actually uh uh unfortunately I do have a non-product I have a book as well

Joachim: 1:09:21

Yes,

Ernest: 1:09:21

Uh

Joachim: 1:09:22

ratio up.

Ernest: 1:09:27

my apologies uh and it's something that's probably not gonna be new to many people but it's the book Hamnet, by Maggie O'Farrell. I actually hadn't heard of it Uh I only learned of it when I saw the trailer for the upcoming movie version of it Uh the film is uh directed by Chloe Zhao, stars Jessie Buckley and Paul Mescal and it's gonna be hitting theaters in the US at the end of this month, November 27th. Um and it looked really striking to me at the trailer and I mentioned it to my sister and she said oh you have to read the book Uh and I said oh I didn't know it was a book And uh so I did read it and it was incredible It was uh so so uh it just paints such a rich picture of life Um so just to give you a very very very loose overview it's a work of speculative historical fiction It um is loosely based on the life of William Shakespeare and his wife Anne or Agnes um depending on which history you read And they their kids one of whom was named Hamnet And it's noted at the very beginning it it like a two sentence prologue of the book that at the time late 15 hundreds early 16 hundreds apparently the names Hamnet and Hamlet were equivalent It's kind of like John and Jack So um the child was named Hamlet and then it imagines the events that led to Shakespeare writing Hamlet Uh so it's it's fictionalized but based on these real figures you know obviously Shakespeare was a real figure his wife and his family as well Um and I I just found it to be deeply moving. A lot of people I've seen describe it as being very sad and there's certainly sadness in it but I definitely didn't come away feeling sad after having read it I just felt really like my soul was filled up Uh so I just uh definitely wanted to recommend that I I would it I think it would probably be worth reading the book before seeing film have still a to go Um good thing is I heard that the film is different from book which um I think is great the most of each medium I don't gonna feel super I based on how is like might more if first and then you've already read Hamlet and you're oh what can I read next I just wanted to connect it back to the book Lavinia by Ursula K LeGuin that I recommended in our very first episode. Um both are works of speculative historical fiction built around vital works of literature. In the case of Lavinia, LeGuin built this world around Virgil's Aeneid. And then in the case of Hamnet, uh, O'Farrell builds this world around Hamlet. And I, came away from both books feeling very similar things So I think if you liked Hamnet really enjoy vice versa You, um, the. Last thing here, the reason I wanted to mention Lavinia and LeGuin is that, there's an exhibit on Ursula K LeGuin opening at Oregon Contemporary, in Portland. Uh, it actually just opened on Halloween, and it's gonna be running through February 8th of next year. So I just wanted to reference that. It's called a Larger Reality, Ur and it's curated by, her son Theo Downes-LeGuin. and it, it sounds like it's be really interesting, of different types of media contributions from, um, other artists as well. So, include a link to that, uh, in the show notes too. So, um, that's my recommendation for week.

Parisa: 1:13:07

Ernest, I think, uh, no need for, apologize for suggesting sad or dark movie or books because most of the masterpieces

Ernest: 1:13:21

Right. Being

Jeff: 1:13:22

I mean, Hamlet.

Ernest: 1:13:25

Oh, that's great. Well, I think that does it for us. Uh, Parisa and Jeff, thank you so much once again for joining us on Learn, make, learn, and helping our listeners understand how they can put their weird to work. I,

Parisa: 1:13:37

Thank

Jeff: 1:13:39

and hopefully we were weird enough for you.

Ernest: 1:13:44

Yeah, same for us. Hopefully we weren't too boring for you guys., and to our listeners, thank you for joining us here at Learn Make Learn and as always, we want to hear from you. Do you have thoughts on anything we d discussed or recommended today, or maybe there's a product or service you think we should talk about. Whether it's a request, a question, or an observation, please do share your thoughts with us at Learn Make learn@gmail.com. Or on threads Learn, make, all one word. Thanks for listening, and we hope you'll join us for the next Learn, Make, Learn.