Learn, Make, Learn

Off-the-Cuff: Miele, Snow Peak & Ableton Live

• Ernest Kim, Joachim Groeger • Season 1 • Episode 22

Share episode
Ernest:

Hello, and welcome to Learn, Make, Learn, where we share qualitative and quantitative perspectives on products and services. to help you make better. My name is Ernest Kim, and I'm joined by my friend and co host, Joachim Groeger. Hey Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim:

I'm good. I'm tired. I was gonna say I'm happy it's the weekend, but it is the end of the weekend as we record this, so I'm not sure, uh, I'm not sure how to feel about it. I, it is, it, it was a long week. We were done with that. It's very good. Um, so, but happy to be having another small episode recording. I think this will be good. How about you?

Ernest:

yeah, yeah, same. I think it's that time of year as well where the days are getting a bit shorter. So uh, I, I think I'm feeling that as well. The weekends seem a little bit shorter because the days are shorter, but yeah, same, also very excited to be, uh, with you. recording another of these, um, shorter format episodes. This is episode 22. And, um, actually, last time we asked for feedback, uh, as to what we should call these episodes. And it looks like Off the Cuff has received the most listener support to date. So, um, Joachim, what do you think? Are you good to go with referring to these as Off the Cuff episodes?

Joachim:

let's do it. Yeah. Let's do off the cuff. I'm happy with that.

Ernest:

All right. Well, um, as ever, we love hearing from you. So, Please do keep sharing your feedback and questions with us at learnmakelearn at gmail. com or on threads at learnmakelearnshow, all one word. All right, now let's move on to our recommendations. Joachim, you want to get us started?

Joachim:

I'm going to actually recommend a product

Ernest:

Hey.

Joachim:

I'm going to recommend the Miele Complete C3 Calima Powerline Vacuum Cleaner. It's an interesting device for many reasons. it's almost a throwback vacuum cleaner in many ways. So Dyson is kind of the name that's synonymous with moving vacuum cleaners into the 21st century with its dual cyclone approach to vacuum cleaners. Inspired by how sawmills extract sawdust, um, via a kind of cyclone process. That's what, James Dyson himself said was his inspiration for that. And he thought, well, what if there was a way to put that into a small vacuum cleaner? And then you would have a bagless vacuum cleaner, which is essentially what the sawmills have. And potentially you never lose suction and all of those benefits. we've adjusted to the idea that that is the way to do it. Bagless vacuum cleaners are kind of the norm, and it's very rare to see anyone make a brand new vacuum cleaner with a bag. It feels like a really dirty, wasteful, outdated way of doing stuff. But we have owned cyclone based hoovers for a while. In fact, I actually owned a Miele cyclone based battery powered one for a while, and they're just all They don't do a good job. I I'm I have really We've had a Dyson, um, not battery powered, mains powered and it was fine, but it would get quite dirty. And it was very finicky to keep clean. I always assumed, I guess the technology is letting it never lose suction and all of those things. And so I really just thought that was the only way things could be. But then I was getting so fed up with that whole approach, I just said, what else is out there? And Miele, They still make vacuum cleaners with bags, which really I found so super puzzling., so I bought it knowing that I could return it, uh, if, if everything went wrong, so I got it through a very large online retailer that isn't super strict with returns and I have to say, um, Man, what a product. We've had it now for about six months, I would say, and I fastidiously hoover the house quite regularly. We have three kids. There's always a mess. There's always something crunching under my feet. So a hoover that is always operational is necessary it's a really good machine. So there are all these little design features that make it an incredibly capable machine. It is pricey, what are you getting with that extra money? It's like with watches, fit and finish. Everything fits together, nothing's wiggling around, things lock in place, things clip in place, and everything is just, it feels. high quality. The way it looks is pretty nondescript. It just looks like a normal vacuum cleaner, but, um, little details that make it a very usable machine that are worth pointing out. The casters that it rolls on, move in all directions. I remember when Hoovers just had two big rear wheels and a little caster on the front that could rotate. This thing can move sideways, forwards, 360, any way you want it to go. Super smooth, really great. And when you're just moving around the house, uh, being able to just kind of, this is not good, but, yank it by the hose so that you can get it to where you want. I know, it's not the right way to use it, but. It is the way I need to use it, so it will follow me around the house very easily. Um, the cable is incredibly long, it also retracts with one touch of the button, the whole cable is retracted, it's, it's great, it can stow away, it's still super light, and it uses a bag. And so far, I have not seen any reduction in the performance of this, um, Hoover as time goes on, which then got me thinking, to what extent was that really a little bit of a myth, that there was this incredible loss of suction from the bag getting clogged up. Maybe the machines have just gotten better and they have more output or the bags have gotten better. I've not had an issue with it at all. And it's incredibly good. The bag I have not had to replace, which sounds kind of potentially gross, but It is sealed off in its little, in a little container, um, and there are no strange smells or anything like that. And it's very easy to replace the back. It has a little clipping, plastic clip, sliding clip thing. You just pull it out and you can throw the whole thing away. It feels very wasteful. But then again, you still have to do filters and all of those things for cyclone vacuum cleaners as well. And it's not, you have to scrub them, clean them. So I'm totally sold on the bagged vacuum cleaner right now. The convenience. is great, but I think the performance is the thing that's really marking it out. So it's kind of a weird throwback technology. I was really looking forward to buying this thing and giving it a try because it's so old fashioned in many ways. But I do think that it's an interesting case study in how narrative and marketing and branding just can wash over the entire truth of what is a good machine and what is a bad machine. And I think every manufacturer had to get onto that bandwagon. merely to show that they are taking this idea seriously, even if there was zero merit to it. I assume that when Dyson came out, many manufacturers just said, no, you don't have to worry about that. This is just hype. But I think that's just something about seeing your dust spinning around in one of those Dyson machines that made people feel like I'm getting something clean, right? Vacuum cleaners, everything is concealed inside of the box and you don't see a thing. Um, and Dyson is very smart and like, show the cyclone, like show them the thing spinning, show it. getting all that stuff.. I don't know. whether there is truth to this loss of suction. I think eventually towards the end of the life of that bag, a hundred percent, it's going to get clogged and that's it. But same thing with your cyclone thing. If you keep going, it's, it's going to stop spinning air and nothing's going to work anymore. I think, a challenge to anyone who's out there, like, is there any value in the cyclone thing versus a back thing? Because I, in my daily use, have actually found the opposite to be true. So I don't know. What kind of Hoover do you have? I don't want to spend too much time on this topic. It's, I have a couple of other things I want to talk about, but what kind of Hoover do you

Ernest:

the funny thing is we have a very similar amulet model. It's a predecessor, I think they called it the, um, C3 cat and dog model or something like that. But it came with, you know, some attachments that were particularly useful if you had pets, but we have that. And we've had that for over a decade now and it's continued to be absolutely rock solid. Uh, we do also have a Dyson. I forget which model exactly, but, um, we've had the Dyson for about four years now and it's just starting to give us some issues where it's not holding a charge. Uh, so yeah, yeah, that is annoying. Um, but I was curious, what led you to the Mila? Like, could you talk through, cause you know, it is a bit of a counterintuitive thing cause the Dyson form factor is like so dominant nowadays. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joachim:

uh, I think Brexit. is the start of my journey. James Dyson was a vocal supporter of Brexit. He was one of the business leaders that was insistent that people come back into the offices before there had been a full rollout of vaccinations during COVID. He was totally unsympathetic to the fears and concerns of his workers, who are the lifeblood of his company. Then, after he lectured everyone in the country and the UK about the patriotic duty of, uh, voting for Brexit, he then moved the company abroad. So he's just kind of a douchebag. Um, so, that was the beginning of it. And, all of that just left a funny, funky aftertaste in my mouth when I thought about him. My, my journey started with, uh, Hoover's, not Dyson. you know, we'd, we'd owned a Dyson before the handheld one's incredibly loud as well, which really was, um, I was shocked how loud that machine was. The Miele C3 is pretty damn quiet, and it has multiple modes. So you can go from a whisper mode all the way up to a high powered rug mode, which I assume you'll see your Miele can also probably do. You can switch between those modes. That has also been really useful, uh, depending on the surface. Man, the thing is pretty lightweight. It's sturdy. And like I said, it's that form and fit that gives you confidence that this is going to do okay for the long run. And I can see a distinct quality difference between the Miele that we had, which was a battery powered unit, not made in Germany, no offense to anyone, but clearly built on a budget, should I say, like it is a more budget friendly device, even though it's still very expensive. There is a distinct difference that you just feel immediately. it's that fit and form and the clicking. This is the thing that you're paying for when you look at watches, right? It's the expense is just that little extra refinement in the way the thing is put together with care. Yeah,

Ernest:

I'm irrationally enamored with that power cord retraction feature that you mentioned. It's amazing how well it works and 10 years plus on it continues to work. That's perfect every time. It's like, I'm amazed that it can do that. Yeah.

Joachim:

and so powerful. It's, it is one click and the entire chord retracts. really fast. And it's just so wonderful. It's a very satisfying machine to be working with, to do such a, you know, very, boring, tedious task that is no fun, having a machine that gives you a little bit of joy and pleasure during that is, I think makes a, it makes a huge difference. So the premium, yes, it is a premium machine, but you're using the damn thing every day. Why don't you get something that's actually worth enjoying?

Ernest:

Right. I wonder how Um, Mila has managed the transition in terms of, in historical, there used to be vacuum stores. I don't know if this was the case in Europe, but in the U. S. there used to be stores, specialty vacuum stores, and those have for the most part gone away. So I wonder if that's been a challenge for Mila. Because I imagine it must be difficult to sell someone on You know, 800, 900 plus vacuum without being able to try it out. Did you buy yours online?

Joachim:

I did, I did. I bought it online. To be honest, Dennis, if I had lived in Portland, I might have gone to Stark's Vacuum Cleaners. Are they still around? That was a shop, that was like a shop, but I don't know if they're

Ernest:

I know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if they do still exist or not. I'll double check.

Joachim:

Yeah, if, if any city would still have a vacuum shop, it would have to be Portland at this point. I think it's the only place that would do that. But yeah, no, I bought ours online. And like I said, I, knowing that we could return it was a big

Ernest:

Right, right.

Joachim:

It would be nice if there are more cheesy showrooms where you could actually just try one of these out, but you know, YouTube videos are the next best thing. Would have been interesting to have like a vacuum salesman try and sell me on it as well. I don't know. I don't know that that experience, it doesn't happen very often anymore. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that's one of my, my quick recommendations. I'm happy to alternate to whatever you've got on us and we can bounce off of your stuff.

Ernest:

Oh, sure. Yeah. I've got, uh, just one I wanted to share. Um, maybe it might lead to a follow up, a related conversation, but the product, I also, it's also a physical product. It's from a company called Snow Peak, uh, that makes outdoor gear. It's a company that is based in Japan, but, um, now it has international presence. And the specific product is their. IGT line. Um, but I'll just give you a little background in case anyone's not familiar with Snow Peak because it is still somewhat under the radar brand. Um, it was, Snow Peak was founded in 1958 in Niigata Prefecture in Japan by a person named Yukio Yamai. And as the company tells it, Yukio returned to his hometown after serving in the military during World War II and found solace in climbing. Mount Tanigawa, which is a really treacherous peak that's considered one of the 100 famous mountains of Japan. And as he wrote in his journal, quote, we link our lives together by a single rope and it gives us such a beautiful sense of trust in each other. It is such a pure thing. If we could capture the feeling and harness it for the good of society, certainly everything bad or evil would fall away. unquote. So, um, you know, you can kind of get the sense from that, that climbing really changed his life and became really important to him. And he wanted more people to be able to experience it. But he found that, uh, the climbing gear that was available in Japan just wasn't good enough, at least, you know, by his standards. And so basically necessity became the mother of invention and Snow Peak was born. And, you know, Snowpeak is quite different from most, uh, Western outdoor product brands in that they deliver products that allow for, um, a type of camping that's much more common in Asia, which is sort of, I guess, what we would call like car camping or, um, what's that called? Uh, like deluxe camping. There's a term for it. I can't remember what it's called. Yeah, I guess it's sort of more like glamping, but it's just kind of the more common style of camping that you would experience in Japan and South Korea as well. And so, um, the products tend to be. Maybe, you know, certainly not the sorts of things that you're going to go hike into anywhere with. Uh, they're really the sorts of thing that, that you would bring in your car. Um, so just to give you some, some context on it, but their IGT system, IGT stands for iron grill table that kind of was the genesis of it, but fundamentally it's a modular system. And that's why I wanted to share it because It is really the antithesis of the minimum viable product concept in that it's, it's, um, absolutely not the least common denominator solution in that it's, it can actually be, seem very overwhelming at first, but what you get in exchange is that it can be incredibly powerful. Um, so at its core, the IGT is just a frame for a table. So the core of it is this frame, uh, it's mostly aluminum and some very, uh, robust nylon. And then you add on all these other elements, even the legs you add on, it doesn't come with the legs. And the reason for that is that that means that you can get legs of different height. Uh, they offer, I think three different heights, three or four even. Um, and then within that frame, they have. Um, now I believe they offer two different widths of frame and the, the frames are made up of set unit widths. So, uh, the, the kind of most popular frame is a three unit frame. And then they sell all of these accessories that fit into the frame. Um, and I know this is gonna, it's very difficult to picture just through, uh, words, so we'll share copious links in the show notes as well. But you can get, um, a one unit bin that would fit into the frame. You could get, uh, A two unit burner. So, you know, it would occupy two of those units. Um, they're all kinds of, you can even get a sink that would occupy one of those units. You can have add ons that you can use to extend, uh, the, the, the frame on, on its sides. You can even have frames of different heights attached to each other. So you can create these incredible Um, setups, uh, that really are tailored exactly to your needs in terms of the size of your group, the type of cooking you're doing. Um, but it's, it's this really cool product that is at its core modular, you know, that's really envisioned from its very Genesis as a modular system. And I just love that. It's this example of kind of the opposite of that. MVP thinking that's so common these days in the digital space, and instead it's How can we maximize value, uh, by spending a lot of time up front thinking about the many different use cases that our customers might need and then building a system that is modular and modular enough to accommodate that. And I just love that. And it's, I think it is quite unusual. I'll maybe talk through some, some of the reasons why I think it is pretty unusual. It's there are some other examples though. Like, um, there's a. a bag brand that I really love based in Seattle, actually called Tom, Tom bean bags, B I H N. Again, we'll provide links in the show notes. And in their case, they designed their bags again, around this fix fixed units of size. Uh, so you can get a bag and then pair it with their packing cubes that You know, you could get a basically a one unit packing cube or two unit packing cube and you know, there are different bags will accommodate those different sizes of add ons. And then in addition to packing cubes, they have all kinds of different accessories that you can use to extend the. The functionality of that core bag that you have. So Tom Bean is a great example. I think there's, you know, other examples too, like for example, um, in the furniture space, Charles and Ray Eames, a lot of their furniture pieces and concepts were fundamentally modular. Um, they even designed a modular house concept, which unfortunately I don't think was ever actually manufactured, brought to manufactured. But, um, it was the concept, uh, it was a prefab, uh, modular house concept. So, um, you can, you see examples of this, uh, I'd say another example in the digital space would be like Minecraft. Um, you know, I, I think that's a great example of something that is fundamentally modular was designed to be extended by the end user. Um, I wouldn't consider games like, for example, Fortnite that allow for in game cosmetics. To me, that's not. Modular in that it's not really, you know, cosmetics aren't really fundamentally changing the functionality of the overall system. They're almost more like stickers, which is why I think the name, the label cosmetics is kind of an apt label for what they are. So I think things more in the vein of a Minecraft where you can fundamentally change the functionality of the system. Uh, that's kind of what I mean when I talk about modular and to me, the IGT. System from Snowpeak and also Tom Bean's bags are reflections of that in the physical space. Um, I think, you know, if you, you kind of think about this from a product creation perspective, I think there are reasons why modularity tends to be the exception rather than the rule. Uh, for one thing, it is more complicated from a product creation and a line planning perspective because modular products have to work together. You know, they're interdependent. Um, And so, you know, it requires more planning upfront, more thinking upfront, and then it can also create some pretty big challenges from an inventory management perspective. You know, for example, in the case of Snowpeak's IGT system, if their core frame happens to be out of stock, then that can really significantly reduce demand for, for any of those other modules that go with that frame, uh, with that core frame. Uh, you know, by contrast, if you were to just offer a line of standalone camping tables, inventory of any one of those tables, isn't going to affect the others. In fact, actually, if inventory of one table were to go, you know, um, if one of those tables were to sell out, it might actually create increased demand for the other ones. Um, so. Yeah. You know that it creates challenges. And I think that's why this inventory complexity is a big reason why brands that have succeeded with a modular approach are almost always wholly or largely direct to consumer. Um, you know, because it can be really difficult to persuade a third party retail partner to carry enough units. Of enough of your skews to make a modular platform viable for a consumer shopping at that retailer. Um, and then speaking of consumers, modularity can also be complicated to explain to consumers. And I think that this is definitely true of Snowpeak's IGT system. It can feel really overwhelming at first. And the way Snowpeak has addressed this complexity is by creating. really rich retail experiences, both in their stores and they have this really innovative thing they called Campfield, which are Essentially campgrounds that they've created that allow you to experience their products, you know, in the way that they're meant to be used, you know, in the context in which they're meant to be used. Um, and the same with the retail stores. If you, uh, they don't have that many of them in the States, but, uh, if you have an opportunity to visit one, they're just so fantastic in that they have the gear set up so you can, you know, See them in context and see how you'd use them. And it really illustrates why, uh, Snowpeak's modular approach delivers more value than, you know, kind of typical standalone sort of product. Um, and then one last, I'd say kind of pro and con from a product creation perspective is that modularity creates. It's hard constraints, you know, because those jigsaw pieces have to fit together and you know, that can impose design challenges. But um, as you, Joachim, you know, have highlighted in previous episodes, constraints can also be a powerful catalyst for innovation. And I, I absolutely see that in the case of Snowpeak's IGT system, they've come up with all these ingenious, you know, Add ons to this core system, and I think that constraint has allowed them to be so much more innovative, you know, because if you're just creating a whole bunch of standalone, uh, products, you can be innovative, but it can be also, I don't know, very confusing. You end up with all these different products that have all their own unique value propositions, whereas in the case of Snowpeak's IGT system, everything enhances the value proposition of that. System. Um, and I think that is fundamentally what makes a modular system so compelling and powerful is that every product makes every other product in that system more valuable, uh, as a, you know, um, brand, I'd say that's the case for Snowpeak, but also as. The customer, you know, every time I add a piece onto my simple core, it becomes more valuable, the system as a whole. And then also that individual piece that I've just added on. So it's so cool to be part of an ecosystem like that. I'd say kind of whether this is intentional or not, one other Um, side effect of a modular system is that it does increase switching costs. Um, you know, because I've now bought into the system, I've added on all these different modules, and so I'm much less likely to now switch to some other, um, you know, Table or whatever the case may be that won't work with that system. So, um, I think that, uh, Snowpeak as a brand, but also their IGT system in particular has a lot. There's a lot you can learn from that as a product creator, whether you're making products for, you know, physical products or digital products. Do you have any experience with Snowpeak's products? Uh,

Joachim:

haven't actually had any experience with Snowpeak products. Um, but I have browsed the website not because I'm not a camper, but I am a gear fiend. So I, and I had, I did look at the designs of the, um, the IGT system, which is very, it's very neat and very clever. I think this whole theme of modularity is. touching on a nerve for me in general, because there's something very, we've talked about it before, which is having a system that is adaptable to a shifting set of needs is, is the ideal in so many ways. Uh, and funnily enough, just before we hopped onto this, I was looking at modular bookshelves as a thing we've, we've held off on buying. IKEA bookshelves or whatever, cheap bookshelves, MDF bookshelves, because we want to have a nice library set up. So all our books are still in crates, uh, and we're just trying to find the, the right solution. And I've always had my eye on two specific solutions. One is, By Dieter Rams of Brown, his thing called

Ernest:

uh,

Joachim:

which is a modular bookshelf system. It uses these rails that are either suspended in the middle of, you know, clamped between the floor and the ceiling and you hang things off it. Or you can screw that frame into a wall and you hang sister shelves off that, uh, drawer units. desk units, anything goes once you have that frame in place, you can basically do anything. Uh, and then the other company that does a good job is USM.

Ernest:

right.

Joachim:

These are all premium products, right? These are like investment products, but USM has this, um, little metal ball that has I'm trying to think now, like enough from every plane, like little threading. So you can put screws and you can basically construct these bookshelves. Um, extend them, shrink them down, using this very, very straightforward system of rods and little ball. And for the like, with which of the nodes where all the, the rods come together to create a corner or create a shelf. And that's also a system that has, uh, doors, glass doors, uh, blank pieces. desk things, pullout units, like it's pretty limitless at that point. But what I think is also interesting about physical modular systems is they are very legible in the sense that if I wanted to make my own things, I could. make my own attachments and modules for this system. So the USM thing there's nothing stopping me from measuring the threading, figuring out what screws go in there. In fact, there is a second company that's out of Germany that has made a compatible system with the USM that is much cheaper, but only ships in Europe. I already looked, uh, they're a fraction of the price. Uh, they make some of the stuff in the Czech Republic, but they're, they don't use these cute little balls. They have more of a cube shape to them, but totally compatible with the USM system. That's the amazing thing about a physical modular system is that it is so legible. So repairs, extending it yourself, you could conceivably get a piece 3d printed or made by someone if you want to keep something going. Um, awesome. because it's immediately visible how it works. it's not a mystery how the modules fit in. I think this is the same thing with the Snowpeak IGT. It's very clear, So you can make your own version of something if you really, really wanted to yourself or ask someone to help you do that. So Like you said, there is lock in. This is an ecosystem that you're joining. However, it's legible and therefore it is still in your control to be able to use it. Even if the company disappears, this physical representation, this modular system still can exist. Right. And so, um, I think that's, and it's difficult to design these things. Well, I think it makes sense that it only occurs in certain domains like bookshelves, a relative, you know, furniture is pretty straightforward. I'm not sure if we've mentioned this in the past, but the framework laptop is a good example of a complex technological device that, that is able to be pretty damn modular, right? The, the essential chassis remains fixed. It's a shell and inside of that, the components come in so you can, you know, remove the entire motherboard and upgrade the chipset and, and switch completely from anything that you want. Tiny modules for power, USB, external, you know, drive systems, hard drives, whatever you need, hot swappable to a certain extent, screens, uh, replaceable. Yeah, I just want, I want more of that.

Ernest:

I think you're right, too, that this sort of modular approach is going to be so important looking ahead as you think about Sustainability and the need to keep products for longer. I think one great way to enable that is to create modular systems where you can add functionality or very easily repair parts that have failed. Um, and I, it gives me great, I mean, to that point, it gives me great confidence as well, what either, whether it's Snowpeaks IGT system or my Tom Bean bags to know that. I will, they will continue to be valuable for me because they have created this framework that they've stuck with for long enough that to your point, now there are third parties parties who've who now offer, you know, in the case of snow peak, there's multiple third parties or, um, uh, Tom Bean as well. So yeah, cool. That investment I've made will continue to have value and actually I'll be able to continue to grow the value of it over time because they've had to discipline to create this framework, establish this framework and stick to it over time. I think it's so different from the approach that so many people take, especially in the digital space. But my hope is that it's something that more people in both the physical and digital domains will start to think about as we. enter into this era where, um, uh, you know, people don't have quite as much money to spend and, you know, they want to stretch that, uh, a bit further. And, you know, to your point about USM being expensive, same with the Snowpeak IGT stuff. But at least for my, on my part, I'm willing to make that investment because I have confidence that the value will be there for over time. Um, you know, it's not going to be this kind of throwaway thing where after a few years, like my Dyson vacuum, I'm probably. There's nothing I can do with it once the battery stops working. I, I don't believe it's repairable. So, um, I feel a lot better about, um, you know, being willing to invest, uh, in these modular systems because I have confidence that they're going to continue to have value over time.

Joachim:

I mean, another way to get at the modularity is almost, is, is after the fact sometimes, so, if one of your hard drives is done in your laptop and you don't need it anymore, you can pull it out and then put it into a case that has a USB on it and then it becomes a portable hard drive. So,, If there's a way to like resurrect and repurpose a device into a new space, that would be great. I would love to be able to, you know, when my phone is done, just wipe it, crack it open. And someone says, just plug this thing in. It's going to turn your little phone into a small, Linux powered machine. Like that would be amazing, yeah, we should be thinking of ways of reusing that technology more and more, we have to figure out how to use the machines that we're still stuck with. Um, yeah.

Ernest:

I remember the, the old days of expansion cards and PCs and, you know, as janky as that was, it did enable you to extend the life of your, uh, computer, you know, and really, uh, add a lot of very specific functionality as you needed it. And, um, it would be great to see us come back to that in the future. Uh, a modern way, you know, you've mentioned there's some examples of it, but I think there's a lot of opportunity there.

Joachim:

Yeah, I totally agree. I think we really haven't tapped into it because we didn't have, we've not had to, and necessity hasn't driven us to that point. If we're throwing away these highly capable phones that are, more powerful than any of the computers we had access to during the 90s. It would be prudent of us to start investing in figuring out how to use these technologies for longer. And yeah, it's a shame we don't, we don't do that.

Ernest:

Did you want to touch on any of the other,

Joachim:

Yeah. So it's not really related to any of the things that we're talking about, but it is related to technology and, and product design. So, circles right now, there's basically two or three pieces of software that control all of audio production. Uh, one of those pro tools, which has been around forever, um, logic, which is apple's product. And then there's something called Ableton and that product is live Ableton life., it has a really interesting history. It was built by two musicians who just wanted to make software that would be usable in a live context. So they were really frustrated by things you couldn't play around with the arrangements. You couldn't improvise. So they created this piece of software that handled that. The lesson about this software is one thing, but I'll tell you one little tangent that I found out recently about their history. So, The powerful thing about the software when it first came out was its ability to just be a highly capable beat matching piece of software. So you could just drag samples and loops and they would all be immediately synchronized to the master clock time that you'd set. without changing the pitch. So if you think about, you want to slow down a beat, generally the pitch would have to go down. Or if you want to speed it up, the pitch goes up, like imagining running a record really fast or really slowly. Well, these guys have a way of doing it without changing the pitch, which is a big deal for people who make electronic music. So they present the software at NAMM, which is like huge trade show. It's huge. Like all instruments, all software, everyone is showing this. They are nobody like no one cares who this small outfit is. And they only have the beta version of the software. So they're tucked away in the middle of nowhere, no man's land. And this is one of the co founders describing the story, his name is Robert Henke. Some dude with a German accent shows up and he's like, Hey, so what's this software? And he demonstrates the, you know, drop a sample in, it just plays the loop. And then he's like, wait, but what's this? Can you change the time without changing the pitches? Like, yeah, that's the whole point. And he did demonstrate that. And he says, can you do it while the sample is playing plays the sample, slows it down, you know, perfect. Nothing, nothing. It's done. Okay. What if I wanted to draw a curve and just have it like move continuously? He said, Oh yeah. And he opens how he can change the, and this guy's like, Oh, okay. And then he, and he just walks off. And then after that guy leaves. They start getting this constant flow of LA music professionals coming in and they're all like Well, yeah, my friend told me that we should check out the software. My friend, Hans, Hans Zimmer of like Gladiator and every movie soundtrack right now, like this is Hans Zimmer who had been testing. So he was picking them up in the other parts of the

Ernest:

That's awesome.

Joachim:

of interesting thing is like, so they were getting traction with that software, but Henke, the co founder points out a really interesting thing about the product. When it was launched, it looked. very drab. and even now when you get it, it's all gray, mostly monochrome and green was kind of the color. So color wasn't a big deal. And it was all flat, which nowadays seems very modern. All things are very flat. We don't have fake 3d buttons, right? We don't try and make it feel like a physical thing. So them just doing everything flat. at the time in the early 2000s seemed wrong because you have these computers, they can make everything look real. And in fact, one of the most successful pieces of software at the time for music creation was a thing called Reason. And they literally created A fake rack of soft, of machines and you'd flip the machine over and the cables would animate and you could pull the cables out. I mean, they were spent effort on that. And then Ableton comes along with this flat, just very basic grid, but very powerful tool. And so Henke says that it was such ugly software. But no one took it seriously for so long. And they said, once someone sees this technology, these ideas of being able to beat match and, you do this loop manipulations and all of that, the big guys are going to come and crush us. It's not going to take much for them to do that. And because it was so Ugly and no one cared people treated it like a joke. And they had an opportunity to go from Ableton version 1, 1. 5, to 2. And 2 and 3 is when they started establishing themselves. And by that point, it was too late. The big guys started paying attention, and they're like, well now what? Like that, that brand is now synonymous with the grid and the way they manipulate samples. And so he said it was, it was a blessing that their software was so bad because no one took it seriously. Otherwise people would have crushed them immediately. And it's a really interesting lesson, like maybe making something ugly in the digital domain that has a core of highly, highly usable technology. But the aesthetic of it is not appealing, lets you fly under the radar and establish a core audience of people that appreciate the functionality and the thought that went into it. And then later on, you can start building out that other stuff to get the mainstream use. And in the music domain, that's quite common to just see a big manufacturer take an idea and say, well, that's ours. Now we just fold it into our, um, into our main software So an interesting little lesson. And there's a. podcast episode where they discuss the stuff. So we'll link to that. Um, and you can see the transcript a bit, but he talks about Hans Zimmer paying a visit so it makes sense that he would, this stuff would appeal to him.

Ernest:

Oh, that's so awesome. I love that. Hey, I just, I really like the sentiment as well of it. Yeah, we're just in such this have been for so long of just scale. Everything is about scale, scale, scale. And yeah, there's a place for that, right? I guess if you're Facebook, then you need scale and Apple. But if you're a startup, I think it's such a great example that you don't have to do with what everyone else is doing. You can, I mean, yes, it's hard. If you can take that time to find your audience and create this authentic connection by taking them on a journey with you, I think you can create this very durable Uh, brand and value proposition that then is, uh, defensible, you know, just like you're saying, um, from the big brands. So, uh, gosh, I just, it's a great story and hopefully people take it to heart and, and see that there's more than just one way to approach digital product creation or, you know, physical product creation as well.

Joachim:

For sure. And it starts with a real idea, right? It's not, it was a clear thing that musicians wanted to have, and they wanted to use the technology for. And these two musicians, Basically built a solution for themselves and were then allowed to bring it to market and let people learn about it.

Ernest:

Right. One last thing, I guess, is just another, to me, it's another illustration of companies that we, I think, tend to love most are the companies created by people who made the thing out of necessity. Like we've talked about a few examples. Snowpeak was the same because they wanted, something and it didn't exist. So they made it and they really were passionate about it. And you see that come through and that's why they're willing to stick through, you know, stick with it and continue to iterate it. And, um, you know, it's Nike came from that passion as well. Apple came from that as well. And, um, I think that's the opportunity for small brands because Apple today. Does, you know, I'd say every day you see less and less of that, right? Like, is anybody at Apple actually using Siri? Because if they are, then I can't imagine how it could possibly be this in the state it is if they're actually using it. So, you know, you just get the sense every day that they're no longer a company of people who are passionate about using the things they make. Um, So, you know, that's the opportunity if you're a startup is, is to build around that passion, uh, and, you know, eat your own dog food, you know, is the expression, right. To, to, to make it this product that you use and, and, um, and that you love to use. So yeah, I think that does kind of connect a lot of these things that we've talked about today.

Joachim:

Yeah. There's definitely a vibe connection as always with all the things that we talk about. Yeah. Yeah.

Ernest:

All right. Well, I think that, That's it for this episode. Um, as I mentioned earlier, we want to hear from you. Do you have experience with anything we recommended this week? If so, what's your perspective? or maybe there's a product or service you'd love to hear us focus on through the lens of product marketing or product innovation. Whether it's a request, a question or an observation, please share your thoughts with us at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com, or on threads at learn, make, learn, show, learn. All one word. Thanks for listening, and we hope you'll join us for the next Learn Make Learn.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Ernest Kim

Co-host
Head Shot

Joachim Groeger

Co-host