Time to Learn

Apologies for our delay this week! In this episode, with the Watches & Wonders show around the corner, we talk watches & the broader lessons we can draw from a product category rooted entirely in emotion.

WRIST CHECK – 02:16
IWC Pilot’s Watch Chrono Top Gun
Ming 37.07
Halios
Raven
In-House vs. Off-the-Shelf Movements
Idris Elba Wears a $500 Watch

JOACHIM’S 👍 – 11:39
IWC
IWC and Carl Jung
“The IWC Colors” with Pantone

ERNEST’S 👍 – 19:05
Cartier
Cartier Watches: A Brief History
How Cartier Changed Its Fate

JOACHIM’S 👎 – 26:40
Richard Mille
Michelle Yeoh has a killer watch collection

ERNEST’S 👎 – 30:52
Audemars Piguet
History of the Royal Oak
CODE 11:59: How to Fail at Marketing
AP Surprises Us All With the Newest Marvel Collab

JOACHIM’S 🤡 – 43:10
Hublot

ERNEST’S 🤡 – 46:46
Parmigiani Fleurier Won 2022
OT Podcast: Oris’ Rolf Studer
Oris ProPilot X Kermit
Bulgari Octo Finissimo Tadao Ando LE
Understanding the PF Minute Rattrapante

WEEKLY RECS – 55:58
Jenni Elle
Britt Pearce
Dead Simple Sites
Joachim’s new site

CLOSING & PREVIEW – 01:00:59

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CREDITS
Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

Transcript

Ernest: 0:04

Hello and welcome to Learn Make Learn where we share qualitative and quantitative perspectives on products to help you make better. My name is Ernest Kim and I'm joined by my friend and co host Joachim Groeger. Hey Joachim, how's it going?

Joachim: 0:19

I'm good. Hello, Ernest. It's been very uneventful, so I'm quite happy with that. Um, some colds here and there yet again, but what can you do when you have small children in school? There's not much you just have to deal with, deal with those things. It feels like, I just realized last week I mentioned lice. This week I haven't mentioned anything that gross, but you know, it feels like spring is here in the Pacific Northwest, which is very nice. I'm very Yeah, how have things been for you, Ernest?

Ernest: 0:48

Yeah, things are good. You know, we finally got our skylight fixed. So that was uh,

Joachim: 0:53

Oh, well done.

Ernest: 0:54

it's a relief to get that over with. Um, and you know, same here where it's been great to finally see some sun. and uh, things blooming. It's definitely been

Joachim: 1:04

Oh yeah, very true.

Ernest: 1:07

right, well, this is episode 13 and today our topic is lessons in time. With the Watches and Wonders trade show just around the corner, Joachim and I are going to indulge in our shared enthusiasm for wristwatches, but those of you who have no interest at all in watches. Please hang with us because this won't just be an episode for watch geeks. We think the watch industry offers interesting lessons that go well beyond the world of horology. For starters, it's been decades since anyone's actually needed a watch to tell the time. And many predicted that the launch of Apple watch in 2015 would put the final nail in the coffin of the watch industry, but Swiss watch exports alone are up to Nearly 16 percent since 2015 and this doesn't include the booming secondary market for watches, which is projected to reach 85 billion in value within the next decade. So why do so many people seem so willing to pay so much for something that none of us needs and what lessons from the watch world can we apply to product creation more broadly? These are the topics we're going to dig into in this episode. now, we usually start with follow ups to our previous episode, but given today's topic, I thought we might change things up and adopt a custom popular with watch podcasters, which is to start with a quote unquote wrist check. That is to say by highlighting the watch that's on our wrists at the moment. Joachim, you want to start by sharing what's on your wrist today?

Joachim: 2:40

I am so psyched that we get to do a wrist check in this setting. Um, because as you said, it is like the preserve of the watch influencer, the watch podcaster, the watch YouTube channel. So yeah, it's really cool to get to talk about our wrists today. Um, today I'm wearing I'm going to hold it up so you can see. This is one of my favorites. It's my IWC Top Gun Pilot's Watch, which is a chronograph. I guess we did warn everyone this is not going to be a Watch Geek episode, but it's hard not to. So this is the reference IW389101. Yeah, we got it in there. Um,. I think this is a great example of kind of cross branded stuff. I mean, as, as I said, it's a Top Gun watch. So the front of it looks like a typical, IWC chronograph, and chronograph for the non watchkeys just means stopwatch built into it. And that's known as a complication because it's, Something that's added on top of just basic timekeeping. I'm a big fan of this watch. It's quite bulky and quite big, but it taps into a lot of the emotional aspects of, you know, why these watches mean something. So growing up, I watched Top Gun when I was way too young as a child. I probably shouldn't have been exposed to that, but it Blew my mind. It was one of those movies that I watched so many times is etched in my memory. And IWC have been making this Top Gun chronograph for quite a while, actually. But as a watch snob, I was very wary of the earlier iterations because I think if I remember correctly, the earlier iterations did not have an in house movement. They had a ETA movement. So it was something off the shelf from the Swatch group, and I think it's the last 10 years or something, IWC's made a big effort to become more of a, complete manufacturer. And so the movement that's in this is their quote unquote in house movement. It's not very clear exactly how much of it is really, really in house. How much are they starting from blank metal to make the movement? I don't think it's that bare bones that they start from that point, but it made me feel good. And it made me feel good about, saying yes to something like this. In fact, my wife actually got it as a surprise for me. I had said, I'm interested in IWC. I don't know which one there are two that I'm interested in. She just pulled the trigger on one and I was shocked and speechless because I wasn't sure if that was the right choice until it arrived and I was sold. What's really cool is the case back has got the Top Gun logo on it. That's the only place that you'll actually see anything Top Gun related. Um, and the colorway is very bright. Very, very basic, just black and white, and the second hand is red, so it's quite,, Spartan and utilitarian. And ceramic case, I mean, any watch that's a little bit more, expensive, I really think a ceramic case is a great thing. Just, it doesn't scratch easily, super robust, and you feel good about wearing it out and about. And. What's great about it is it's a very stealthy watch that I just like looking at. As you were saying at the beginning, don't need a watch, Don't need a chronograph, not like I'm keeping time for anything meaningful with my wristwatch. But, all the emotional aspects of it, being connected with Top Gun, my weird obsession with it as a child, the fact that it's still part of me, that I still enjoy that movie so much. It gets at exactly what these products are. They're purely emotional things. What about you, Ernest? What's on your wrist?

Ernest: 6:07

Oh, that's a great choice. I went a very different way and I'm wearing, I'll hold it up for you as well.

Joachim: 6:14

Oh,

Ernest: 6:15

Oh, a watch from a very small brand called Ming. It's named after the founder of the company, Ming Thein, I believe is his name. And the specific model is called the 37. 07. And it's a very, uh, simple. two handed watch, meaning it only has an hour and a minute hand. There's no seconds hand. And, uh, one of the hallmarks of Ming's watches is they do really interesting things with the dial, uh, instead of, um, kind of a traditional dial surface. They, they use layers of clear sapphire, um, and etch and print on these different layers to create really interesting effects that are unique. Um, and then also they do some really fun things with lume, the material that makes the watch glow in the dark. uh, it's really hard to explain. So we'll, um, I wanted to highlight Ming as well as a little bit of a cheat because I didn't think I'd have a chance to, to highlight this during the body of the episode, but Ming is a great example of what's known in the watch industry as a micro brand, just a very small brand often made up of just a small collection or even just one person. And um, I think they're Microbrands are just such a great facet of the watch world. Um, they definitely played a really big part in me, you know, getting, falling in love with watches in particular, um, to micro brands that really got me into this enthusiasm for watches were, uh, brand based out of Vancouver, British Columbia called Helios watches makes, they make great, um, what are called tool watches, watches meant for, Diving or hiking or, doing activities. And then another micro brand to watch a company called Raven based out of Kansas. Uh, and I think if you're kind of new to this world, micro brands are a really great way to get into it because they, their watches tend to be more, uh, accessibly priced, and, offer really good value, you know, because they're small companies, they don't have quite the overhead of these bigger companies and, um, It's just a, and they're, because they're small, I think in a lot of cases, they're more willing to take risks. Another really the great thing about micro brands is that they are an expression of some of these things we've talked about over these past few episodes. So for example, the importance of repairability and the importance of standards in enabling ecosystems to flourish. the reason I bring that up is that many of these micro brands. Use off the shelf movements. Like Joachim, you mentioned some of the earlier IWCs use just off the shelf movements. and that means that they can really focus on the other aspects of the watch. You know, the case, the unique dial, and also it enables them to keep costs down because they don't have to spend, millions of dollars developing their own movement. So it, it allows for a lot of experimentation in this microbrand watch space, um, and allows for easy repairability. So, um, I think they kind of show why it's so great to, um, have an open ecosystem that you can tap into. Uh, and then one other thing I wanted to highlight was a great example that Microbrands aren't just for people starting out. Um, there was a really fun example of the actor Idris Elba, who has actually been an ambassador for at least two or maybe even three different watch brands, you know,, all high end watch brands. But in a recent, interview on a, YouTube channel, we'll include a link to it. He was wearing a micro brand watch in this case from a small New York based, uh, brand called brew. Uh, and they make watches that are all focused around coffee because the founder of the company loves coffee. And so they have some unique features that are meant to help people who make coffee. Uh, and it's a fun watch. A 450 watch, so it was so cool to see Idris Elba who can afford, you know,, any watch out there, uh,, choosing to wear a watch from Brew. He wasn't sponsored, he wasn't endorsed to do it. It was just because he really liked the watch because this company makes great watches. So it's a great way to start, but it's not just for people who are new to the space, these sorts of micro brand watches. So, uh, that's why I wore my Ming today and wanted to highlight that. All right, well, now let's on to our main topic and, uh, we're going to put a little bit of structure around this or else I think Joachim and I would, um, end up spending hours kind of just pontificating about watches. So, uh, what we're going to do is each of us is going to pick one brand to highlight as a positive case study. One brand to highlight as a negative case study, in other words what not to do. And then one wild card which we can use to highlight any brand for good or for ill. And for each brand we'll talk through why we picked it and what lessons we think we can take away from it that could be applied beyond the world of watches. And, you know, we'll alternate, go back and forth. So, are you up for getting a started positive, negative, or wild card? You can start wherever you please.

Joachim: 11:39

I think I'll start with my positive watch brand and I want to highlight IWC. Okay.. IWC is really interesting, because they're not based in Geneva or anywhere like that where all the other watch makers are. They're based in Schaffhausen, which is the German speaking part of Switzerland, not the French speaking part. So IWC is the international watch company started by an American who wanted to take advantage of the low labor costs in Switzerland, which is really strange to be thinking about, but at the time that was the case in the early 1800s. a rich family took over the company eventually. The interesting thing is that someone married into that family and then became their CEO, the equivalent of the CEO back in the day, and that person was Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst, you know, who worked with Freud and came up with these ideas of the archetype and the collective unconsciousness. He worked as the CEO for a good chunk of time because his wife's family owned this watch company. Just a funny little side thing that is part of IWC's heritage. Now. The present day IWC, yeah, it's totally crazy. I mean, who would have thought present day IWC is part of a huge, huge conglomerate. So I think what's interesting about the watch industry is that a lot of it reflects kind of the way all industries go. There are very few independents. There are very few manufacturers that are able to do the whole thing end to end by themselves. So most, Swiss watch manufacturers are part of large groups and IWC is part of Richemont, which owns like ungodly number of brands, um, including Vacheron Constantin, like the list is long. So they're not an indie manufacturer. They have heritage, but they're now part of this big conglomerate. What's interesting about the brand is that they're able to balance everything off in a really non cheesy way. and I think that's really been only coming together for them in the last. I'll say 15 years. Cause that's what it feels like that they've been able to find the right mix of watches, the right mix of, technical innovation to keep people interested. and pretty effective cross brand collaborations. So one of the earlier ones that they've had, in their watch collection has been a collaboration with Mercedes, the Formula One team Mercedes that is. and so Lewis Hamilton and George Russell, now the current drivers for Mercedes, all wear IWC watches. When they're out and about, they wear versions of the pilot's chronograph, which is more affordable, but of course they get access to all the good stuff. So I think when you see Lewis Hamilton out and about, he's usually wearing a Mojave perpetual calendar, Top Gun chrono thing, which is just 40, 50 K, you know, for him, nothing. Cause his watch collection is probably even more crazy, the collaboration leads to watches that are co branded, but again, done in a pretty, Tasteful way. I want to say one of them has some very garish colors that reflect the Mercedes Formula One team branding, but it's not over the top cheesy. One collaboration I already mentioned is the Top Gun collaboration. usually when watch brands try and get into some sort of military heritage, it also can be a bit cheesy. A brand that's really guilty of that is Omega, I think, because they've done so much work with James Bond and they've tried to create an iteration of their Seamaster 300, which is on the market right now that has hallmarks of an official watch that the British military would be, issuing it looks great. I think it's a really great watch without the branding of the Bond thing. I think it will be fantastic. They're just trying so hard to convince us that this is the watch of someone who would be out there doing stuff and, fighting the bad guys. And it just doesn't quite work. It's a little bit cheesy. The Top Gun collaboration that IWC has feels more real. The pilots watches Are based on the watches that were issued to pilots, mostly,, German pilots were wearing versions of these watches during World War II. So not the good guys, but they've somehow managed to also distance themselves from that. What's interesting about the Top Gun collaboration is the watch that you can buy in the shops has the logo on the back. And it's pretty subtle, as I said The cool twist is that Top Gun pilots get this watch as well. And they graduate. From the school, but they don't get the one that's off the shelf. They get a special one that's unique. So it's still the same watch, but there's some cosmetic differences. And so you feel a connection to Top Gun, but you know yourself, you know, the truth is you're not a Top Gun pilot because they get their own special watch. So there's a very interesting. choice there where they're deliberately creating a difference between the professionals who will, have earned that watch and us who are able to access it by just buying it. But it still somehow feels legitimate. They've not cheapened the idea that those pilots are actually getting something unique that is theirs. And it's their tool watch. for the Eagle eyed, if you watch the new Top Gun movie, you will see IWC watches everywhere, including right at the beginning. I think they even have an IWC stop watch So anyway. I think that was a very clever collaboration. And they recently did a Top Gun Pantone one. So they took colors from Pantone's catalog and created these very unique colors with the ceramic material. that was also really well done. So Pantone's branding shows up on the. on the website and the color is their color. It's done pretty tastefully. I think as a case study in how to do Collaborations with another brand, these have been pretty thoughtful. And the little lessons are create some tiering in there, give customers the sense that they're accessing something, but let them know that it's not the real thing because there is a real thing out there. So it's interesting because you're not trying to dupe the customer into thinking they're James Bond. You're trying to say, this is the one for you guys. You're not pilots, but you get to enjoy the technology anyway. I think more meta, maybe more interesting, just generally the current CEO of IWC. He was an architect. He joined IWC as an architect and just loved the brand and stayed on. And that kind of reminded me call back to an earlier episode, reminded me of Dieter Rams, who also joined Brown as a architect and then got into the design department. The current CEO has worked his way through the company and is now the CEO. But what's interesting is that his knowledge of architecture and his training has informed the way he thinks about this company more and more. So he has a good sense of taste, but the other thing that's really interesting is that their new factory and manufacturing space is laid out perfectly for watch manufacturing. His claim is that their watch manufacturing facility is the only manufacturing facility that's laid out sequentially so that it starts from raw materials in a linear fashion, raw materials, rods of metal rods of, yeah, they start with rods of metal and then those go through machining processes, stage by stage, linearly through the factory until it gets to the final moment when the watch is finished so architectural thinking is informing a production process. So goodness me. I could go on. As you said, Ernest, thankfully there are two of us, so no one has to just listen to IWC. I think they're a great brand to just check out. Anyway, Ernest, if you have to now take over, cause otherwise I'm going to go on forever. What have you got? Where do you want to start? Do you want to start positive? Or are you going to go straight for the jugular negative?

Ernest: 19:05

no, no, I'll start positive as well, but I love that. you chose that if you see, I think it's a great one because, I think a lot of people who aren't immersed in the watch world have not heard of IWC. So I think it's a great one to highlight because it, does have such great heritage. But, I actually wanted to start with a positive and actually it's another brand from the Richemont group. Uh, like you've mentioned Joachim, they have a huge family of, Brands, the one I wanted to highlight is Cartier and, uh, I should start by apologizing in advance for my terrible pronunciation. in terms of just kicking it off with the lesson here, the, for me, the broader lesson with Cartier is that you can be true to your heritage. Without being precious about it. I think they've done a great job of illustrating that. just for some background for anyone who's not familiar, Cartier was founded by a French watchmaker named Louis Francois Cartier in 1847, which was actually one year before the company that would become Omega was founded and nearly six decades before the company that would become Rolex was born. So it has a very long history. And, though Cartier is known by many today as a jewelry house, its roots are in watches. Um, the founder of Louis Francois Cartier was a watchmaker. Um, and so just to give you a little bit of history here, I'll quote an excellent article by Mark Bernardo at the TeddyBaldassarre.com will provide a link to this as well. But, uh, quote, once dubbed the king of jewelers and the jeweler of Kings by no less a personage than Edward VII of England, Cartier is regarded by many watch aficionados as a jewelry house first and a watchmaker second and a watchmaker prone to feminine jewel bedecked watches at that. Historically, however, nothing could be further from the truth. Cartier's horological roots run even deeper than its high jewelry history, and the French Swiss luxury powerhouse has contributed some of the most historic and influential watch designs in the world, many of them aimed at men long before their appeal expanded to women. Unquote. So as I mentioned, though, more recently, Cartier was acquired by Richemont in 1993. And there was a period where they really struggled in the watch space so much so that according to a November, 2023 article by Jamie Morton in the green market magazine, I'm quoting her here. Between 2016 and 2018, the Swiss Richemont group that owns Cartier launched a massive buyback initiative, buying over 500 million worth of unsold inventory back from retailers to protect Cartier's brand value and prevent deeply discounted prices on stagnant inventory. Jumping forward to today though, Cartier consistently ranks among the top three brands in worldwide luxury watch sales, second only to Rolex and as of 2020 surpassing Omega. And. They've been able to drive this growth in large part through reissues and reimaginings of their mostly dressy classics at a time when really sport watches were what's dominated the industry. They've also mostly eschewed the typical watch world trope of pursuing what's known as haute horlogerie. In other words, just making the most complicated watch possible. Just to show that you can, certainly some of the models they've launched at, uh, watches and wonders over the past few years have exhibited fine watchmaking, but their collection has consistently emphasized the joy of beautiful objects. And I think that's been at the core of their resurgence as a watch brand. So I think they're just. A great example of finding success, not by following the trend du jour, but by being true to your brand's values and making your own path forward based on those values. Uh, and a great expression of this is the fact that you wouldn't confuse any watch in Cartier's lineup with anyone else's, which I think is just fantastic in kind of a marketplace with a lot of me too products. Are you at all a fan of Cartier, Joachim?

Joachim: 23:12

I have, to be honest, I always really found them so dainty is the word I would use. Um, but I have to say the Cartier Santos, which is a square watch a little bit larger than, the other ones that they offer. They've been quite interesting to me. They have a great, a great presence, it is very unique. And as you said, I think They are really hard to get mistaken for another watch brand. It is super unique what they do. So they've really managed to hold onto that heritage and, and a unique design, which I think is very special.

Ernest: 23:46

Yeah, and actually, I'm glad you mentioned the Santos because, um, I don't think a lot of people realize how much heritage that model has as well and that it's broadly considered to be the first men's wristwatch and also the first purpose built wristwatch as opposed to a pocket watch that was converted to a wristwatch and also The very first pilot's watch, which is not something that people

Joachim: 24:10

That's crazy. I didn't know that. Okay. Blowing my mind right now. Goodness. Thank you for that.

Ernest: 24:14

no, so yeah they do have an incredible history in watches, um, and, but, uh, they lost it for a little while, but it's been really exciting to see them, uh, tap into it again, and, um, I'm very excited to see what they bring to this year's Watches and Wonders.

Joachim: 24:31

I think what's interesting also what you said, and I think it's worth highlighting purely from a sound business strategy. It's pretty crazy when you think about it, that some, a company would go back into the market and they would buy stock back like half a billion dollars worth of stock back, pull it out of the market you could argue, there are different things they could have done with that money. I mean, one dumb thing they could have done is said, look, we just need to blast more ads out there to make the things seem more desirable going back into the market and pulling inventory to make sure people don't start slashing the prices and trying to just move the inventory. It's a gutsy thing to be doing. People feel that it's like kind of retreating. Maybe you're, you're leaving with your tail between your legs. But I think it's actually a really, it's a power move because you're saying we're going to take really very direct action. We're not going to rely on, like I said, an advertising campaign, a branding campaign, hiring some brand ambassador that eventually will add up to about a half a billion dollars. Just saying, I don't, we don't want to cheapen this thing. There's too much stuff out there. It's going to get slashed in price. It's going to degrade and damage the brand long term. That's a really gutsy move. There's a lesson in that for sure. I think that's a totally legitimate way to think about protecting this very ephemeral concept of brand value, you know?

Ernest: 25:56

Right. Yeah, gutsy is the word that came to mind for me as well. And I think what's great too is it's not a, you know, kind of hope for the best sort of approach. It's, it's part of a broader strategy, uh, one step in a broader strategy. And, um, I absolutely, you know, have huge respect for Richemont for, um, you know, having the, the, Courage of their convictions to do that, you know, that's a that's a huge risk on their part But um, they had a plan and they believed in it and then they they put their money where their mouth was and now They're really reaping the benefits of that

Joachim: 26:32

Yeah, yeah.

Ernest: 26:34

All right. Well, that's my first pick and my positive. How about your second pick, Joachim?

Joachim: 26:40

Okay, I'm gonna go, so my negative is, Richard Mille, a brand that is considered to be one of, one of the big, big top tier, completely astronomically priced out of reach watch brands that's out there. Formula One fans, you will have seen Richard Mille's because they sponsor the Ferrari team anyway, if you're listening to this, you can afford a Richard Mille. I think we, you need to email us and you need to give us some money. Uh, but Richard Mille is a brand, a kind of a new brand. Like I said, the prices of their watches start in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I understand that we have been discussing luxury watches that are, expensive and they are completely pointless. I think it's fair to say anything that's above 20 for a watch is already getting into luxury territory because it's completely unnecessary. and why even spend the 20? You have it in your, Every device in your home now has a clock in some form. You don't need something on your wrist. So it's a strange thing to then call out a brand for being so excessive. Part of it is just my personal beef with excess in general. It is a symptom of the total craziness of our world right now so I was always wondering how podcasts people come up with like a thing that they have. I think my thing is constraints. It keeps coming up, but Richard meal, their watches are expensive and they're not expensive because they're just charging a lot of money for them. They're incredibly technically complicated watches with tourbillons and all kinds of crazy stuff happening. And they have a great story attached to them. If you think about the branding, it's brilliant. in fact, one of my favorite, Watch endorses is actually Michelle Yeoh, who is endorsed by Richard Mille. And they made her a fantastic watch and it's has shock absorption because Michelle Yeoh's a stunt woman, right? And she wants to have a watch that represents her ability to take a, a kick and a punch and throw herself off a bus. So the watch should be able to match that. And their watches can sustain those types of hits. Which is insane for a mechanical machine to be able to do that. So if you look at the details, if they gave you a cost breakdown, it would be very clear why the watch costs 500, 000. They have no constraints. If you can spend five years thinking about a single component in that watch, and you don't have to worry about Time running out or money running out, you just, just keep pushing for the most crazy thing that you could imagine. There's just no discipline and they know they can off offload these watches. if a watch costs two, 3 million to, to make, they know someone's going to buy it. They have waiting lists, so they don't really have to worry about that and they didn't really have to worry about revenue and profits and costs and all of those things. Completely unconstrained. And so I find that Richard Mille's, lack of constraints disconcerting if you give me a blank check, of course I can do everything. If I have a huge corporation sitting behind me and I'm going to start a new business line for one of these trillion dollar companies, of course it's going to be a success. So I find from a purely philosophical angle, Richard Mille as a brand just doesn't work for me, because it doesn't really get at innovation. The real trick and the real skill is when you have to face a trade off So, as a company, I don't think there's anything that you could extract as, as a set of lessons that you could get from them. It's not interesting, even from a pure, how does this company operate? Anyway, that was a long one. I think again, We're going to edit this down, but anyway, um, what's it, wait, how do you feel about Richard meal? Cause it's one of those that you, as a watch person who's normal, like who has a job and salary and things like that, it's not a brand where you go, Oh, Ernest, thinking about getting that Richard Mille.

Ernest: 30:39

You know, actually, it's a really interesting one, and I'll, maybe I'll,, share my thoughts on it as I talk about my pick as well, because I think there's some links,

Joachim: 30:48

Yeah, let's do it.

Ernest: 30:50

uh, but that was a great choice. My next one, I'll also go negative, a negative case study. And I think a lot of, uh, watch geeks, if there are any listening, will turn off the podcast as soon as I say what my choice is. But, uh, it is one of the so called Holy Trinity of Swiss watchmakers, which is, I think, a ridiculous name. Given, to the trio of Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin, and Audemars Piguet, which I'll refer to from now on as just AP. And AP is my negative case study.

Joachim: 31:23

That's it. That's it. Everyone's all the watch geeks. The three people, the three people that are listening,

Ernest: 31:29

We've lost them.

Joachim: 31:30

we've lost, they're gone. That's it.

Ernest: 31:33

Um, and, and that will, they'll hear me out here, right? So in the case of AP, they've had an enormously successful product in a model called the Royal Oak. It was introduced in 1972 near the beginning of what would come to be known as the quartz crisis that decimated the mechanical watch industry globally, but also really impacted Switzerland. But the Royal Oak was a revelation in that it introduced the concept of a luxury sports watch. It just didn't exist before then. It sounds so simple now, but the Royal Oak was, a watch Positioned as a luxury timepiece, priced as a luxury timepiece, but it was made in stainless steel instead of precious metals, which all luxury watches were back then. Uh, and it was meant to be worn in more sporting context and it, that it just didn't exist before the Royal Oak, that idea. So it really was a groundbreaking piece. And um, It didn't do particularly well at first because it was just so radical at the time, but, uh, it came to become, um, it came to be very, very popular. And especially in recent over the past decade, it's just kind of become part of the finance bro uniform, uh, has just rocketed in value. that might seem like a really great thing, right? So you have this incredibly popular watch, uh, that defined a whole category of watches. But to give you some more context around this, I'm going to quote a blog post by Gary G. from Quill Pad. This is a post from June of 2019, a few months after AP launched an entirely new collection called Code 11:59. Okay. So quoting Gary G. here. Your leading product line, the Royal Oak is a curse as you sense that at some point it must begin to decline and your market research tells you that its buyers are beginning to skew older. Your other core lines, the Jules Audemars and Millenary have languished in the massive shadow of the Royal Oak success. And increasingly consumers see Audemars Piguet as synonymous with and limited to Royal Oak. In the hundreds of case studies I analyzed back in my business school days, this is again, still Gary G each ended with. What should the CEO do? In real life, it appears that Audemars Piguet concluded that the answer to his problem was to create an entirely new line of watches sportier and edgier than traditional dress watches while still being on the dressy side of the Royal Oak, with this new line being called Code 11:59. The initial online response to the new collection was extremely negative, and even among those who withheld judgment until handling the watches, I'd say the word lukewarm was the general view. So, what went wrong? There are a number of do's and don'ts when it comes to new product strategy and Audemars Piguet fell afoul of many of them, unquote. Now in his blog post, Gary G enumerates the various ways he thinks AP went wrong with code 11:59. Uh, but I'll just cite one, which is that again, quoting him, the code 11:59 line is It's positioned somewhere between dress and sport. That's already a bit problematic from a product portfolio perspective as the Royal Oak already sits atop the dividing line between dress and sport watches. And it's tough for a single manufacturer to establish two distinct offering personalities in the same space. If you imagine a wall sized product positioning map on which the Royal Oak and Kodal N59 lines are plotted with pins, the pins would be almost touching and surrounded by ample areas of blank, unserved market potential. That's not good, unquote. And so, you know, I think just from a very simple positioning perspective of SCARIG notes, they are. They took this thing that's been really successful, but I think I would agree with his perspective that it's kind of come to define AP, um, in a way that puts them at great risk because it's just inevitably going to decline. Um, they've tried to address that with a new product line in the code 59 that's essentially positioned in the same place as the Royal Oak. So that's just kind of a, seems like a very basic, um, unforced error to start with, but also what At least I see in code 11:59 is something we've talked about in past episodes, which is that AP did what it could do, namely very complicated watchmaking instead of what, what it needed to do, which was to reassess what it stood for as a brand and then create products that reflected those values—not their capabilities, not what they can do, what they stand for. Um, and. So to me, AP as it is today is really kind of a mirror image of Cartier in that they're a brand that no longer seems to know what they stand for. Um, Or you could also say that they're evidence that a brand must stand for more than just one of its products. Um, and I think you could just kind of see that in the meandering way that they've continued to sort of evolve the 11:59, um, by just, Making it even more complicated and and even in my opinion less relevant, you know, obviously, I'm not like you you touched on not a millionaire not in the Income bracket to be able to purchase these watches, but they're not even Um, there's nothing about them that, uh, says anything really. Um, and, and that's why I think it's so disappointing because Audemars Piguet, like we talked about just a minute ago, is one of the few remaining independent, um, you know, artists. Brands, Swiss watch brands with long history and heritage, and they are able to do incredible things in terms of watchmaking. You know, I don't think anyone can critique the watchmaking behind the code 11:59. It's, it's, you know, peerless, but. Um, it's just packaged in a way that, um, is just bereft of meaning, um, and so makes it, um, just not at all desirable as beautifully constructed and engineered as it is. Uh, one sort of, so, you know, to your point about Richard Mille, the funny thing is that for me, what Richard Mille is doing is kind of the logical. Extension of what the, um, real look would be if you continue to evolve it and modernize it. I feel like, uh, Richard meal has now kind of defined that luxury sport watch, um, in a way that Audemars Piguet stopped doing, because what they did with the Royal Oak was they just made it more luxury. They, put, uh, executed it in precious metals. They added all these complications to it, which is fine. Fun and exciting. Um, but it's ceased to evolve. Um, and I think that if they had continued to evolve it, it would look more like what, um, uh, Richard Mille has done with their line for good and for ill. Right. I don't particularly like those watches either, but they've definitely staked out a unique territory that had. Been established initially by the Royal Oak. Um, so that's kind of that connection that I was referring to earlier that I had seen. Um, but what do you think, Joachim, do you think, think I'm crazy? Are you a, an AP fan?

Joachim: 39:12

No, I think you're really on the money. It's, uh, it's as if there's a risky thing to say in the watch. It's kind of a, I mean, the Royal Oak stands as this monolithic watch. It is, it is Audemars Piguet. Audemars Piguet is the Royal Oak. And there are very few brands in many industries that have, are known for one thing. I think. Porsche is a good example of something, the nine 11 was synonymous. That's Porsche. That's a Porsche. Now there's a bigger, broader product portfolio and they haven't, just kept doing versions of the 911. They went SUV, unfortunately. but then they were like, well, medium SUV, small SUV, electric, four doors, and then cheaper sports car, Cayman, Boxsters 718, 911. They were trying to get the right products that they weren't interfering with each other. The 9 11 still is the 9 11. It is the thing that defines the brand. They're never going to get rid of that design, that shape, but they've been iterating on it. It does not look like the old one. The Royal Oak is still the core of Royal Oak, pretty much the same thing. A good contrapoint as well to What I thought was effective cross branding, I think Audemars cross brand and collaborations are so awful that just, it's just some of the worst stuff I've seen. So, it's hard to believe that this is true, but there's a Royal Oak concept that has a tourbillon, and it's got Spider Man on it. And it costs an obscene amount of money. And before Spider Man, there was the Black Panther watch. Like, of all the brands, who are you trying to appeal to? And then, in terms of celebrity endorsements, obviously, they're there. But one of the major ones that they recently had was they got John Mayer And John Mayer just released another version of the Royal Oak. Like, this is my version of the Royal Oak. I don't think he's a watch designer. And it's very clear that He didn't have an idea other than could we make a really cool Royal Oak? Cause I love the Royal Oak. Why do this? Why do these cross brand things? Their watches are very expensive. They start at about 20, 000 for a watch. When you, when you say it out loud and other people are listening, you realize how stupid that sounds, right? But these are expensive watches, but at that price point. They're not that great, and yeah, these collaborations just seem completely pointless. If you did want to get John Mayer, let John Mayer just tell, force him. You're not allowed to do a Royal Oak. Anything else, right? Anything else in the back catalog? We'll do it for you. I just realized this is, this is so funny that this is about something quite ridiculous, but it does touch on a lot of these aspects of what makes a brand. You said at the beginning, these are purely emotional purchases. They fulfill no utility at all. They have absolutely no, they're pure luxury. You don't need it. And so when it comes time to pick a brand, pick a watch, it is totally driven by That very emotional connection that you have with a brand. I think the customer journey is still something that really matters in all of this stuff because it is such an emotional, object. It has nothing to do with utility. Here you can see. a case study where everything else is stripped away. It's just emotion. It's just spirit. In every other industry, there's going to be a, there's other competition. There's this price point. There's these features. Are there's what's the upgrade cycle look like if you're thinking about expensive items like electronics. So, I think it's worth studying still as a, as an outsider, even to understand that.

Ernest: 42:48

that's a good, that's a great point. Um, it is such a unique space, um, that it's almost like genre fiction. Uh, it's this way of, different way of looking at the world to gain lessons that you can kind of bring back into the real world. Uh, well, alright, so how about your last pick? Your wild card.

Joachim: 43:10

My wild card. Well, the brand is Hublot. That is a young brand. And from the outside is kind of the worst version of Richard Mille. Very expensive watches. But a lot of those watches are not really expensive on the inside. They took watches that had movements That cost,, a couple of hundred dollars to make and buy off the shelf, shove them into some nice watch cases and then they slapped on a, like a 5, 000, 6, 000 percent markup on that. They really are just the worst, the worst part. They were really ripping people off and so they have really suffered to a certain extent because they've never been taken seriously as a watch brand. Now, what's really interesting is that in the last couple of years, There's been a slight shift, but they still do this really irritating thing of making overpriced watches. But then at the same time, really strangely, they're making incredibly interesting, technically, sound and technically interesting watches. and that's, weird to me, which is why I don't know how to think about them. They're not all bad. That, that, that practice of just taking basic watches and making them expensive is really grifty and awful. But then in the last couple of years they have the Big Bang Unico now. and that is a chronograph meaning it has a timer. But it also is a flyback chrono, which means you don't have to stop it and reset it. You just push a button and the chronograph resets automatically and just keeps counting time. The second hand swings back, hence fly back, flies back. It's ready to go again. So they've made a watch movement that is technically at that level. They've put it in a great design. And so here's the other thing that they're known for first. So, they're the first brand to put a rubber strap on a precious metal watch. That is. It's pretty common now. Hublot were the first to even consider doing something like that. They're the first watch brand to make a sapphire case for a watch, which is also nutty, but now many brands are trying to cover that. So that was their first and then colored ceramics. Which I was very happy with IWC for doing, but Uber were the first to do colored ceramics. What's going on here? You know, it's a brand that was playing this really grifty game of cheap watch movements and expensive watches. But then at the same time, there's this dual identity of a brand that is trying to make. take risks and make interesting watches out of it. So that's my wild card because I just don't know how to feel about it. I feel bad when I like them. It's so, so stupid. I regularly go back to the website and then I just look at one of them and go, do I, am I starting to just force myself to think this is nice or what's wrong? And it's good that it's so expensive cause I'm never going to get it. Um, but, um, Yeah. I just have many moments late at night and I'm just looking at the Hublot catalog. I'm thinking maybe it's not that bad.

Ernest: 46:12

That's a great choice. I actually, uh,, I've often thought that if, uh, Casio's G Shock, uh, division were to make mechanical watches, they'd look a lot like Hublots.

Joachim: 46:23

Yeah. I think that's true. There's something Spartan utilitarian, but a bit dressy and technical about that. That thing. Yeah. Technical maybe is the word to describe it.

Ernest: 46:32

But also just completely over the top.

Joachim: 46:34

Yeah. Ridiculous. It's terrible, but so good.

Ernest: 46:41

I love that. That's a great use of the wild card.

Joachim: 46:43

Yeah. How about you, Ernest? What's your wildcard?

Ernest: 46:46

Uh, I'm going to be a little bit more boring and pick another, use my wildcard to highlight another positive. Although I'm going to cheat a little bit and highlight two brands, but the reason that my rationale here is that I'm highlighting them for the same reason. Um,

Joachim: 47:01

You're cheating. You're cheating right now. But anyway, we'll let it slide.

Ernest: 47:05

And my kind of lesson to take away here might seem patently obvious, but the brands I'm highlighting are Parmigiani Fleurier, which is a Swiss brand. Sounds like they might be an Italian brand, but they're actually a Swiss brand. And then Oris, which is another Swiss brand, uh, which I think is also on the kind of the German speaking side of Switzerland. Um, and I want to highlight the, uh, Both of them as examples of the learning that leadership matters. Um, Guido Treni, who's now the, I believe, CEO of Parmigiani Fleurier. He, prior to, uh, moving over to Parmigiani, he breathed new life into Bulgari's watch collection and made, you know, a brand that was very luxury, uh, relevant in the luxury space, but irrelevant in the watch. space. He made them relevant with the Octo Finissimo. He brought that concept to that brand. And, uh, he came over to Parmigiani and within a matter of months turned a pretty sleepy brand, a brand that was known for, great watchmaking, but otherwise was really not really particularly, um,, well regarded, uh, into like, The hot brand of the moment, I think he went over and became their CEO two years ago, and they've just kind of been the bell of the ball at watches and wonders for the past two years. Um, and then similarly, I think Rolf Studer deserves a lot of credit for the success that Oris has seen. And I think he's a great example and a great person. Proof point that leaders can come from within because he's been with Orin's Oris since 2006. So contrary to a great attorney who was kind of a coming from the outside, Roche Studer came from inside Oris and was still able to really bring great leadership. And I love this quote from Studer from a podcast called the OT podcast. It echoes some of the things you had said earlier. Um, but I'll quote him here. He said that Quote, one of the privileges we have in this industry is that we make a product that nobody needs. So you better have a very clear answer to the why your customer should pay so much money for it. I really take this as a great opportunity because we need to load what we do with a message. You make a statement with your watch. So what statement is that exactly? That's up to every brand. You can't just go with the flow. You have to actually have an idea of what you want to do, why you want to do it, and how you want to express it. And I just love that he's so open about that. And he's shared that sentiment consistently. And if you, Listen to interviews of Guido Turini at Parmigiani, you'll hear him express very similar sentiments, really, um, talking about focusing on the why and earning your customer's attention in business. And, um, I think that focus is really at the heart of the success that both of these leaders have been able to bring to their respective brands. Um, are you a fan at all of either Parmigiani or Auris?

Joachim: 50:14

Yeah. I mean, first of all, what a great summary of this, of the whole conundrum and paradox of the watch industry. So thumbs up to that as a, as a really nice package of everything that we've been talking about. Oris, I've enjoyed looking at their products. I've never felt the, the urge to, to get in there. Although I have to say, I really like the, Kermit that they did with a little Kermit, the frog pops up in the date window. I love that the playfulness of that is so it's just so wonderful Um, yeah, so first of all, um, Bulgari's Octa Finissimo is a technically fantastic watch. If you were thinking about which way the Royal Oak could have gone, that is the closest direction something like that could have evolved into. It has echoes of it, but it's not the same watch. so I'm a big fan of that watch as well. also that one has collaborations, I think were really great. they got Tadao Ando, the Japanese architect to do a limited run of watches that he designed. Absolutely incredible. They're so, they're so great. I think Parmigiani, here we go. Here's my thing. It's Constraints. Yay. I'm going to do talk about Constraints. So they've released these watches that are, you know, kind of up and typical watchmaking stuff. So they have a GMT watch, for example, which is a watch that can keep track of two time zones. And the past, the way you do that is you have a second watch hand that is on the watch that runs with the movement. And then you have a separate bezel. That's a 24 hour bezel that allows you to track that second time zone. But Parmigiani Fleury says, well, I don't want to have a bezel that has a number on it. it would be great to have a GMT watch, but we don't want it to look like everyone else's. And. Lo and behold, they came up with a design that, you wouldn't call it a GMT watch. GMT watches have a very specific design language that everyone would recognize from a mile away.

Ernest: 52:09

exactly. That was the Tonda. Um, and that was kind of that the coming out watch. And this was only, I think, seven months after he, attorney had come on as CEO within that span. They created that watch. And the awesome thing is if you listen to interviews with him, He explains, where this idea came from, and it was all rooted in their brand values. The first thing he did when he came in was say, oh, what do we stand for? What does Parmigiani stand for? And what they kind of aligned on was that we're all about people. What he calls private luxury. And this was before I heard anyone use the term quiet luxury, but this idea of, a more understated luxury. And so we were not going to do things that are ostentatious. And so they had this idea of, a lot of our customers do travel quite often, but the typical GMT watch is. Kind of ostentatious, there's a lot of doodads on it. There's an extra hand. There's the bezel like you talked about. So they thought, how could we execute this in a way that delivers on this ideal of private luxury? And they did it using this, complication of the rattrapante, but executed in a completely different way, um, in a really novel way, which I thought was so fantastic. And then they followed that up the next year With the minute which is kind of a take on chronograph or on the timing bezel where instead of it being the hour hand, it was the minute hand and it becomes this very useful way to track elapsed time, um, again, in a very elegant, uh, manner that delivers on this idea of private luxury. So I just love that, that they, they started from those brand values and built from there. Which is kind of the exact opposite of what, at least in my opinion, you see AP doing these days,

Joachim: 54:03

This is a good example of a value. Can naturally translate into a design that's unique and catches people's eyes so my long answer to Parmigiani, I really, I love that watch. And I think it's a really great statement for what that brand wants to do. The only thing I think that's holding them back is that name. I think that name is really, it has different associations, and so maybe they should just be PF, which on the watch face, it is PF. I think they could probably get away with it, but it, that also sounds a bit. Lame. So I get it. It's, it's tricky. Um, Parmigiani sounds like cheese. So, uh,

Ernest: 54:41

that is something that, uh, one of the things he did training when he came in was changed the logo because prior to him coming in, they used to say Parmigiani on the dial. And he acknowledged that, yes, that is kind of associated with one Italian culture and Italian food and it's a Swiss brand. So they created this new PF logo. just, uh, touching on what you, you mentioned about the Oris ProPilot X Kermit. Uh, I'll make sure to include a link to that as well as the AP, uh, Marvel watches, just so you can see the difference. Cause on the surface, just hearing about them, you might think, Oh, well, they're both doing these, collaborations, but the execution is, is very,, very different. And the price points as well, the Oris is like about a 3, 000 watch. And then the APs are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. So, uh, Yeah, that's a point of comparison. All right, well, now that you've heard our perspectives, we want to hear from you. Are you a fan of watches? Or maybe you think watches are completely superfluous. Either way, do you think the lessons we've discussed could apply to your practice of making products? Are there any important lessons we've missed? Let us know what you think at learnmakelearn at gmail. com. Now, let's move on to our recommendations of the week and I'll get us started. And I figured, uh, given the topic today of watches, I would, highlight some good entry points, into the watch world if it's a topic that you're, interested in getting into, but maybe, um,, don't know much about it yet. Interestingly, uh, you know,, not by intention, but my three favorite watch media sources all happened to be led by women. unfortunately one of them, which was called the Tenn and two podcast no longer exists. Not because they didn't have an audience, but because Both of the show's hosts were hired into the watch industry. One was hired into a watch brand and the other joined actually a worn and wound another of my favorite watch media sites. But the other tool of reference, um, and we'll provide links to all of this in the show notes are both YouTube channels. The first is Jenni Elle that's her name and also the name of her channel. And the second is Brit Pearce, who's also known as Jenny. Watch Gringa, um,, and they both host channels focused on watches and What I like about them is that I think they're very welcoming to newcomers. I think in the case of Britt Pearce, she's relatively new to the world of watches. She's been, it talks about that quite often. And so I think that, Helps her to feel more welcoming, but Jenni Elle has really deep experience in the watch world, uh, has been in that orbit for quite some time, and yet she still has this great ability to, create content that feels very welcoming, even to newcomers. Um, at least personally, I find that a lot of the male watch content creators have this sort of, to put it somewhat crassly, this sort of Tick measuring contest energy, uh, that comes through, um, and, I find that Jenni Elle and Britt Pearce don't have that. And, I think as a consequence, I just really enjoy their content. And it's not just for newcomers. they talk about, topics that are, you know, Can be very geeky as well. They're very knowledgeable, but I think if you're getting started, there are two really good entry points into the world of watches. So, Jenni Elle and Britt Pearce on YouTube.

Joachim: 58:22

Yeah. Funnily enough, I think during the pandemic, everyone just subscribed to every YouTube channel they could find that to keep themselves entertained. I had a lot of watch YouTubers on my list. But I have to say that Jenni Elle and Britt Pearce are the only two YouTube channels that I still, regularly watch and still find entertaining. I think that's the thing, especially Britt Pearce. She just has great opinions I don't agree with her and I love, I love disagreeing with her and watching her go off on something. I think one of the things that I found so funny recently was she just loves this very specific reference of the Omega Seamaster 300. It was such pure joy and didn't care what everyone else thought, you know? And, uh, it wasn't done for any reason other than she just really liked that watch. So yeah, I like that. I like them as well.

Ernest: 59:10

That's great. I'm glad you're a fan too. How about you? What, um, what do you have for us this week?

Joachim: 59:15

Um, it's, almost the polar opposite of luxury watches, but it's a site called dead simple sites. com. It's an index for websites that are really, really simple. now I know There's a subculture of web developers that are also trying to get not only simple sites, but sites that have incredibly tiny memory footprints. I don't think this is what this is about. This is purely the aesthetic of simplicity and clarity um, and so I found that a really interesting directory because the only unifying theme. is the fact that these are mostly monochrome websites, heavy on text, and because the unifying theme is purely aesthetic, the websites cover all kinds of topics. and it reminds me of the, oh, I sound like an old person now, reminds me of the early days of the internet where people had presences on the web that were very personal, that were websites, that were their websites, and yeah, maybe they were really crappy Geocities templates, but there was still something very personal and emotional that went into that. And I find these indexes. get back at that magic of the early period where it wasn't all walled gardens, and things that were so tightly controlled. So that's my recommendation. I put it out there as just a reminder of what's possible with the internet sometimes that doesn't involve being locked into a platform. Actually, total side note, but it encouraged me to revisit my website and just strip away things and, and redo it. Um, so I was, uh, inspired by that. So maybe others will be here too.

Ernest: 1:00:53

That's awesome. I can't wait to take a look. I hadn't heard of it before, so it's, I'm really glad you called it out. Alright, well I think that does it for us. Thank you so much for joining us here at Learn Make Learn. As we mentioned, we wanna hear from you, so please send any questions or feedback to learnmakelearn@gmail.com. And tell your friends about us. In our next episode, we're going to discuss the concept known as design thinking. The famed design consultancy IDEO is credited with coming, uh, coining the term. So I'll reference their definition. Quote, design thinking is a human centered approach to innovation that draws from the designer's toolkit to integrate the needs of people, the possibilities of technology and the requirements for business success, unquote. About a decade ago, design thinking was all the rage amongst executives across the corporate world. As Rebecca Ackerman wrote in an excellent piece for MIT technology review, quote, design thinking took hold of the collective imagination during the Obama years, a time when American culture was riding high on the potential of a bunch of smart people in a hope filled room to bend history's arc towards progress. At the same time, consultants, consultancies like IDEO frog, smart design, and others were also promoting the idea that anyone, including the executives paying their fees, could be a designer by just following the process. Perhaps design had become quote, too important to leave to designers unquote, as IDEO's then CEO, Tim Brown wrote in his 2009 book changed by design, how design thinking transforms organizations and inspires innovation unquote. But in recent years, the tide turned with many now describing design thinking as a failed experiment. In fact, the Ackerman piece I cited just a minute ago is titled design thinking was supposed to fix the world. Where did it go wrong? So. Cool. Is design thinking a failed experiment, or is there still value in the concept so long as it's applied appropriately? We'll share our own experiences and perspectives on this topic on the next Learn Make Learn.